Refugee crisis

[Stevo985]

You can be reasonable and then you can make stupid generalisations like '15% of Muslims are radical'

I believe I said 15% of the people who are coming might be fundamentalists/fanatics/supremacists

Yeah, and 7.375% of them might be secret My Little Pony fans, what's your point? You basically made up a figure based on conclusions drawn a few dubious polls conducted on a grand total of 0.00000875% of the Muslim population and used it to make assumptions of the refugees. Not bad for a day's work.

My original question was if people would welcome in refugees/migrants from the east europe if something similar would happen as in Syria, and the said refugees would be 75% men and from the areas which would be known for having christian neo-nazis, I doubt it very much.

Read all of my messages in this topic, instead of cherry picking one poorly made one from the many arguments I've made.

But your original question was based on a chain of ifs and buts.

 

And last, let me ask you people question who will undoubetly call me racist or hate-monger, if same thing what has happened in Syria, would happen in a country like...say...Romania, Czech, Bulgaria, Hungary or other eastern european states and you'd suddenly start to get 300 000 - 400 000 refugees, and they'd be from the areas which are very known for having a lot of fundamentalist christian neo-nazis, would you invite them all in if 75% of them would be men with good chance of, say, 15% being neo-nazis? That's something like 20 000 - 30 000 white supremacists all across europe.

IF this was happening in a European country, and IF we took in 400000 refugees, and IF 75% of them were male, and IF 15% of them were nazis, so IF we had 30,000 white supremacists here, and IF they were let to do whatever they wanted in our country (or countries) then yes, that might be a problem.

But you've made that scenario up. It's in your head. It is not comparable to what's happening with Syrian refugees. So agreeing with your scenario being a bad thing is not the same as agreeing that accepting some syrian refugees is a bad thing.

Nobody is challenging your right to question the taking in of refugees. It's coming out with made up scenarios and statistics that bothers people.

 

It's like me saying "Well, Jarpie, let me ask you this. If this was happening in America, and we took in 200,000 American refugees, and 99% of them were totally normal, hard working, upstanding members of the community who would integrate into society and get a job and eventually contribute as much, if not more, to our country than any other native citizen, would you still think taking in refugees is a bad thing?"

You can't disagree with that question. But it bears no relevance to what is actually happening because I've made it up.

I already said that it was badly made argument, and you ignored pretty much everything else I've said. Hypotheticals are by their nature are "ifs and butts", better question probably would've been  that would you welcome in hundreds of thousands of refugees of which 75% would be men from Ukraine if Russia would start invading it, which I don't think is that far-fetched?

That is a much more reasonable question. Because you've only used one statistic which, as far as I know, is true (that 75% of Syrian refugees are male). You haven't included made up statistics and assumptions about those refugees being terrorists or extremists.

So the answer to your second question is yes. Of course I would welcome them. It would be exactly the same as what is happening with the Syrian refugees so I see no difference. And to be honest I'm struggling to see your point now that you've removed the assumptions about them being extremists.

Can you see how your second question is completely different to your first one?

Edited September 9, 2015 by Stevo985

[NurembergVillan]

More likely to be Richard Wagner than Beethoven, but apart from that...

I get the joke but strangely enough, the philosopher Slavoj Zizek points out that Beethoven's 9th has been the number one choice for dictators and one-party states across the globe.

The Ode To Joy should be seen as a far more insidious form of propaganda than Wagner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM9erS90gTE

I don't want to take this OT, but just in case you didn't get the joke the full way I intended (and for the benefit of others) I didn't choose Wagner simply because he's German, or that his music was used by the Nazis and indeed loved by Hitler, but because he was a published anti-Semite who is often seen as the godfather of Nazism and his literary work the inspiration to Mein Kampf.

Wagner's hateful essay "Judaism in Music" offered Hitler an idea of how far one could go with anti-Semitism. The composer invokes the downfall of the Jews. Köhler detected plenty of anti-Semitism in Wagner's operas. Characters like Mime in "Siegfried" and Kundry in "Parsifal," he argued, are evil caricatures of the supposedly inferior Jews. Köhler felt that "Parsifal" anticipated the racial theories of the Nazis, quoting propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels as saying: "Richard Wagner taught us what the Jew is."

In the 1920s, Wagner's daughter-in-law Winifred invited the young Hitler to attend the Bayreuth Festival on the Green Hill in the Bavarian city of Bayreuth. When he was in prison writing "Mein Kampf," she sent him ink, pencils and erasers. According to Köhler's interpretation in 1997, the Green Hill was a fortress of evil and Wagner the forefather of the Holocaust.

The full piece from Der Spiegel

[chrisp65]

I had no idea!

bastard!

Edited September 9, 2015 by chrisp65
c'mon, somebody was always going to post it!

[Nabby]

http://mashable.com/2015/09/06/everyone-wants-to-be-syrian/

Basically now Germany has said the more the merrier if your from Syria , immigrants of other nationalities are lying about where they are from , posing as Syrian to gain access.

This is where the UK have it right , take the people in the most distress direct from the camps.

Be interesting to see what happens tomorrow when Juncker gives his EU state of Union speech where the EU will set out the figures countries are to take.

Germany don't care though, it really gets them out of a big population problem that was looming. They need lots of people. This way they look compassionate too (Yes Germany with good PR!)

Its not about the UK having it right. Germany have it right... for them theres no right and wrong here apart from Germany being a little dishonest with why they are taking so many

 

You have to admire the ruthless efficiency really. Get 'em in. Get 'em working and paying taxes. Boom. Looming pension/ageing population issue solved overnight. 

Juncker has said today in his speech  Europe (Germany)  has ageing population and needs immigration ....Asylum seekers to be able to work  ..oh BTW there is currently 17mil unemployed within the EU so how that works I don't know.

 

 

 

 

Massive Generalisation incoming here. Its far easier to have a horde/swarm/deluge [/CallMeDave] of grateful refugees/immigrants into the country who can and will work bloody hard for low wages than to convince the indigenous mob who can't be arsed to work and have no real reason to to get off their arses and do something. 

 

It is a massive generalization of a complicated issue.It is far easier to have immigrants come in to work especially for the employer's who are then under no pressure to increase wages.How many of these immigrants on low wages ( and the indigenous population , well the ones who aren't lazy...) are then supplemented by the tax payer in tax credits , housing benefit's ?

Low wages and high living , in particular  housing costs are the issue in this country I don't see how just importing a cheap labour force is the correct way to deal with it.Or even well we need some workers to do cheap work lets use the guys escaping war isn't that a kind thing of us to do ....

 

 

 

[Awol]

http://mashable.com/2015/09/06/everyone-wants-to-be-syrian/

Basically now Germany has said the more the merrier if your from Syria , immigrants of other nationalities are lying about where they are from , posing as Syrian to gain access.

This is where the UK have it right , take the people in the most distress direct from the camps.

Be interesting to see what happens tomorrow when Juncker gives his EU state of Union speech where the EU will set out the figures countries are to take.

Germany don't care though, it really gets them out of a big population problem that was looming. They need lots of people. This way they look compassionate too (Yes Germany with good PR!)

Its not about the UK having it right. Germany have it right... for them theres no right and wrong here apart from Germany being a little dishonest with why they are taking so many

 

You have to admire the ruthless efficiency really. Get 'em in. Get 'em working and paying taxes. Boom. Looming pension/ageing population issue solved overnight. 

Juncker has said today in his speech  Europe (Germany)  has ageing population and needs immigration ....Asylum seekers to be able to work  ..oh BTW there is currently 17mil unemployed within the EU so how that works I don't know.

 

 

 

 

Massive Generalisation incoming here. Its far easier to have a horde/swarm/deluge [/CallMeDave] of grateful refugees/immigrants into the country who can and will work bloody hard for low wages than to convince the indigenous mob who can't be arsed to work and have no real reason to to get off their arses and do something. 

Or far easier than addressing the low wage issue while simultaneously forcing the can't be arsed sector of European societies back to work. Mass immigration from whatever source is manna from heaven for big business.  

[MakemineVanilla]

More likely to be Richard Wagner than Beethoven, but apart from that...

I get the joke but strangely enough, the philosopher Slavoj Zizek points out that Beethoven's 9th has been the number one choice for dictators and one-party states across the globe.

The Ode To Joy should be seen as a far more insidious form of propaganda than Wagner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM9erS90gTE

I don't want to take this OT, but just in case you didn't get the joke the full way I intended (and for the benefit of others) I didn't choose Wagner simply because he's German, or that his music was used by the Nazis and indeed loved by Hitler, but because he was a published anti-Semite who is often seen as the godfather of Nazism and his literary work the inspiration to Mein Kampf.

Wagner's hateful essay "Judaism in Music" offered Hitler an idea of how far one could go with anti-Semitism. The composer invokes the downfall of the Jews. Köhler detected plenty of anti-Semitism in Wagner's operas. Characters like Mime in "Siegfried" and Kundry in "Parsifal," he argued, are evil caricatures of the supposedly inferior Jews. Köhler felt that "Parsifal" anticipated the racial theories of the Nazis, quoting propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels as saying: "Richard Wagner taught us what the Jew is."

In the 1920s, Wagner's daughter-in-law Winifred invited the young Hitler to attend the Bayreuth Festival on the Green Hill in the Bavarian city of Bayreuth. When he was in prison writing "Mein Kampf," she sent him ink, pencils and erasers. According to Köhler's interpretation in 1997, the Green Hill was a fortress of evil and Wagner the forefather of the Holocaust.

The full piece from Der Spiegel

Thanks for the response.

I fully understand the implications and Wagner's anti-Semitism etc but I was just pointing out that while Wagner would obviously be spotted as an anthem of one form German hegemony, the Ode to Joy is probably one too, and we shouldn't naively ignore its propagandist quality. 

Just saying, like.

 

[Wainy316]

Hot topic this! Cannot keep up with this thread. Do some bloody work you lot or respond slower and more briefly please!

[adw95]

Hot topic this! Cannot keep up with this thread. Do some bloody work you lot or respond slower and more briefly please!

This seems to have been taken rather too literally.

[lapal_fan]

Hot topic this! Cannot keep up with this thread. Do some bloody work you lot or respond slower and more briefly please!

This seems to have been taken rather too literally.

Don't ruin it!

 

Oh..

[Marka Ragnos]

Hot topic this! Cannot keep up with this thread. Do some bloody work you lot or respond slower and more briefly please!

It's reached the Open University Symposium stage. I think there need to be a lot more flippant and stupid comments to get it back down to a level I can grasp.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJQ1a0Cmsk4

Safe in germany but still not very happy, i wonder why, no halal food?

Given that Turkish is the largest ethnic minority in Germany I'd suggest it's unlikely there's a lack of halal meat.

Ill-informed racial stereotyping FTL

Oh iam so very sorry, i just have personal experince of muslims in my home town of Malmo behaving just like that or even worse when not getting halal food.

So dont come here with your stupid racist allegations.

It's actually a reasonably well informed allegation no? Defend yourself against it.

[Ikantcpell]

I'm actually having to explain this to you.

You're profiling a group of people who look Muslim because of their skin colour (see: race) based on your own personal experiences.

Ergo: Racist.

Iam profiling a group of people who have just arrived to a new country and already causing havoc by breaking chairs and tables, i have personal experience with muslims behaving very badly when not getting halal food, so i asked if maybe the people on the video was upset cause they were not getting halal food ?

As I mentioned just now, any evidence that this video is what you claim it to be? There are no reports that I can find anywhere.

Claiming? if you read my post again you will see that i didnt claim anything, i asked a question.

So, erm, who claimed that part then?

This is getting ridiculous.

Ok, lets say they are white football hooligans and not muslim refugees, are you happy now???

 

[Ikantcpell]

edited

Edited September 9, 2015 by Ikantcpell

[Rugeley Villa]

ive seen videos today of muslim refugess in budapest and germany running riot and shouting allah akbar amongst other things, this migration is only going to make things a whole lot worse and i can tell you now a lot of these people wont respect the land they live in and will spout their usual bullshit hatred. absolutely unreal, in a few years time europe will be finished.

 

[StefanAVFC]

Seeing some proper shite on social media. If it was one or two idiots it would be fine, but it's being shared by 10's/100's of thousands.

Shit like 'Why don't they stand and fight instead of running away, cowards'

Hate it.

^Ruge come on. You even said you haven't lived near Muslims. Stop buying into the scaremongering.

[chrisp65]

I think the problem might be, Ikantcpell, that much of what you post does skirt around the edges of having a racist undercurrent. Now it might be wrong on our part, but quite a few people have picked up on it. It might be, that if english isn't your first language then we are not picking up the nuance of what you want to get across, or you are not quite using the right words. But I don't know that, it's a guess.

But at the moment, a great deal of what is being posted, to my sensibilities, looks like it has a subtext. So people will call you out on it.  

 

 

 

[Rugeley Villa]

stefan i understand the whole not all muslims are like this but cant you see whats happening in europe and beyond, im genuinely worried about the whole problem thats going on at the moment. just look at parts of our own country to see whats happening, then look at sweden,denmark etc etc the list goes on.

[StefanAVFC]

stefan i understand the whole not all muslims are like this but cant you see whats happening in europe and beyond, im genuinely worried about the whole problem thats going on at the moment. just look at parts of our own country to see whats happening, then look at sweden,denmark etc etc the list goes on.

What's happening in 'parts of our country'?

People say there's a problem and then make things up.

There's a problem. In the middle East. People are fleeing the problem.

They're not coming here to create the problem here too FFS

[Rugeley Villa]

I think the problem might be, Ikantcpell, that much of what you post does skirt around the edges of having a racist undercurrent. Now it might be wrong on our part, but quite a few people have picked up on it. It might be, that if english isn't your first language then we are not picking up the nuance of what you want to get across, or you are not quite using the right words. But I don't know that, it's a guess.

But at the moment, a great deal of what is being posted, to my sensibilities, looks like it has a subtext. So people will call you out on it.  

 

 

 

i think where he lives has a lot to do with it and whats going on there, ive been branded racist on here on occasions but i am far from it. i think if you did a poll in this country more than half would be worried about all this, most people i know certainly are.

[StefanAVFC]

to my above about social media shite. The worst I've seen is attacking refugees for not being poor.

They're fleeing warfare, that doesn't make them poor aghhhhh