The ISIS threat to Europe

[OutByEaster?]

A determined enemy will always find a way to hurt you. The key isn't in focusing entirely on ways to stop attacks, the key is in not having those enemies.

IS is fuelled by the bitterness of wars and the chaos across the middle east, if we really want to stop terrorism, we need to work towards real solutions in the region, even those that upset some of the established powers, even those that make our lives a little more difficult. We need to give the average man in the street (the regular working class Muslim if you like) a future, something worth working for, something that doesn't create the inherent anger and ill will that fuels radicalism and allows evil greedy men to take advantage of the disaffected. That's easier said than done and it would take a determined and long lasting effort on the part of those nations that would take a lead in global affairs, including ours. It would mean upsetting allies, it would have an affect on our economies and it would be difficult - but it is possible. The only way to disarm is to disarm,

Sadly, we will go with bombs again instead - like the USA with it's gun laws, for those that benefit most from the way the world already is, the occasional terrorist attack becomes something that is acceptable - a natural byproduct of the order of things. Collateral damage. 

Men, women, children. Fathers, wives, son, daughters, friends. Lives that had problems and joys and laughter and futures, people like us - may you rest in peace - and serve as a reminder that those that remain have a responsibility not to rest until peace becomes a real possibility.

 

 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

12 minutes ago, snowychap said:

This sounds, unfortunately, like the kind of thing we hear after every event of this ilk: they (muslims) don't do enough to stop it, they (muslims) never condemn (deafening silence) it, they (muslims - or did you mean  just those at the core of the religion?) would do something about it if they really gave a **** (by extension implying that they don't care as it continues to happen).

If you don't mean that then your comment needs some serious rewording.

I think you are overreacting tbh,  There are a few ideas in there and I purposely tried not to inflame their sympathisers.

There are people around the world celebrating the actions today.  I don't think that is good and it should change or it goes around and around.  I appreciate your input though but you should appreciate the bigger long term picture.  It cannot go on like this.  The responsibility is for each and every one of them.  

 

[StefanAVFC]

5 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

The responsibility is for each and every one of them.  

 

All 1.7 billion of them?

[villaglint]

I was so close to posting in this thread yesterday to say bravo to the security services for getting through the Euros without any major incident. 

Then this happens. It does feel like the world is unwinding, not sure if anyone saw Newt Gingrichs tweet about testing US Muslims for thought crimes but when you consider how close he is to White House it won't help you sleep at night. 

All I can do is be as nice, open and generous to everyone I meet and believe the world can steer itself along a better path. 

Edited July 15, 2016 by villaglint

[Keyblade]

58 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

What's the alternative ? They cannot stop these attacks in Europe so what are the range of options available if not military ? 

The majority of the religion in question are good people that have been fooled or forced to follow a religion that actively promotes these actions.

The solution is from within the Muslim community IMO but considering there are over 1 billion voices, their voices should be deafening in their condemnation,  the sound of silence is predictable.  Why not,  from the very core of the religion call an internal jihad on terrorists or similar? It is human made so it can say what they want and if they really gave a **** they would do something about it..

 

 

I despise this sentiment that's trotted out whenever something like this happens. It implies that 1.7 billion Muslims implicitly support these attacks and they have to speak out and let us know they don't. Nah ***** that. Of course this is also ignoring the various Islamic organizations that do condemn these attacks whenever they happen. But how do you want 1.7 billion apologies? Emailed to every white person, just so we're sure? Or are 1.7 billion tweets good enough?

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

All 1.7 billion of them?

Well,  yeah.  If you are in a club that kills little kids and people for no reason at all and actively promotes this in its literature,  change it or leave it.  That is how the world makes progress.

Th fact that there is 1.7 billion makes it even more unforgivable.

 

 

[LondonLax]

Just now, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Well,  yeah.  If you are in a club that kills little kids and people for no reason at all and actively promotes this in its literature,  change it or leave it.  That is how the world makes progress.

Th fact that there is 1.7 billion makes it even more unforgivable.

 

 

How many Muslim people do you speak to on a regular basis?

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

What's the alternative ? They cannot stop these attacks in Europe so what are the range of options available if not military ? 

The majority of the religion in question are good people that have been fooled or forced to follow a religion that actively promotes these actions.

The solution is from within the Muslim community IMO but considering there are over 1 billion voices, their voices should be deafening in their condemnation,  the sound of silence is predictable.  Why not,  from the very core of the religion call an internal jihad on terrorists or similar? It is human made so it can say what they want and if they really gave a **** they would do something about it..

 

 

There's no such thing as 'the core of the religion'. Islam isn't hierarchical in the manner of say, Roman Catholicism. 

And I just don't think it's even slightly true that 'the sound of silence is predictable', or that any individual Muslim (where? In Iraq? In Birmingham?) can prevent one man prepared to die from driving a lorry into people in France. 

[Keyblade]

Where is the condemnation????

Yeah I'm sure Muslims are cool with ISIS despite the fact that they're the main victims of their attacks. Just over the past 2 weeks around 400 Muslims died in terrorist attacks by them. A huge shopping mall in Iraq was decimated killing over 200 innocent people. There was a grenade bomb at a restaurant here in peaceful Malaysia that has nothing to do with these issues, with promise of more attacks. But yeah we're totally okay with all of that.

[mjmooney]

25 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

 If you are in a club that kills little kids and people for no reason at all and actively promotes this in its literature,  change it or leave it. 

I'm guessing that many victims of US/European bombing would consider that we in the west are indeed members of such a club. 

[ccfcman]

Interesting this went straight into this thread. He's Tunisian/French, nothing certain about this being an ISIS attack yet it's lumped in here.

[StefanAVFC]

Old article but whatever.

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html

Quote

In the Name of God: the Infinitely Merciful and Compassionate Lord

A very common, oft-repeated mantra among pundits and “experts” is that Muslims haven’t roundly condemned the extremism committed in Islam’s name. So many times, we hear people saying, “Where are the Muslim voices in condemnation?” “Why aren’t Muslims speaking up against extremists like ISIS?”

Well, the fact is, Muslims have been speaking out against ISIS and other extremist groups. The problem is, some times, people either don’t know or choose not to know this fact. Enter in this excellent post by Media Matters For America, which documents the round condemnation of ISIS by Muslim groups all across the world:

The Organization Of Islamic Cooperation: The Islamic State Has “Nothing To Do With Islam,” Has Committed Crimes “That Cannot Be Tolerated.” As the Vatican’s internal news source reported, the Secretary General for the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, which represents 1.4 billion Muslims in 57 countries around the world, condemned the Islamic State’s persecution of of Christians and other religious minorities in Iraq, saying the “forced deportation under the threat of execution” is a “crime that cannot be tolerated.” According to the Vatican:

The Secretary General also distanced Islam from the actions of the militant group known as ISIS, saying they ‘have nothing to do with Islam and its principles that call for justice, kindness, fairness, freedom of faith and coexistence.’ [Vatican Radio, 7/25/14]

Al-Azhar: Islamic State Is Corrupt And “A Danger To Islam.” Lebanese paper The Daily Star reported that Al-Azhar’s Grand Mufti Shawqi Allam, Egypt’s highest religious authority, denounced the Islamic State as a threat to Islam and said that the group both violates Sharia law and humanitarian law: “[They] give an opportunity for those who seek to harm us, to destroy us and interfere in our affairs with the [pretext of a] call to fight terrorism.” [The Daily Star, 8/13/14]

Arab League: “Strongly Denounced” The “Crimes Against Humanity” Carried Out By The Islamic State. On August 11, Nabil al-Arabi, the Arab League Chief, denounced acts committed by the Islamic State in Iraq as “crimes against humanity,” demanding that they be brought to justice. According to Al Arabiya News, he said in a statement that he “strongly denounced the crimes, killings, dispossession carried out by the terrorist (ISIS) against civilians and minorities in Iraq that have affected Christians in Mosul and Yazidis.” [Al Arabiya News, 8/11/14]

Turkey’s Top Cleric: Islamic State’s Threats Are “Hugely Damaging,” “Truly Awful.” Turkey’s highest ranking cleric, Mehmet Gormez, decried the Islamic State’s declaration of a “caliphate” and argued that the statements were damaging to the Muslim community, according to Reuters:

“Such declarations have no legitimacy whatsoever,” Mehmet Gormez, head of the Religious Affairs Directorate, the highest religious authority in Turkey, which, although a majority Muslim country, has been a secular state since the 1920s.

“Since the caliphate was abolished … there have been movements that think they can pull together the Muslim world by re-establishing a caliphate, but they have nothing to do with reality, whether from a political or legal perspective.”

Gormez said death threats against non-Muslims made by the group, formerly known as Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), were hugely damaging.

“The statement made against Christians is truly awful. Islamic scholars need to focus on this (because) an inability to peacefully sustain other faiths and cultures heralds the collapse of a civilization,” he told Reuters in an interview. [Reuters, 7/22/14]

CAIR Repeatedly Condemned The Islamic State As “Un-Islamic And Morally Repugnant.” In a July 7 statement, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) called the terrorist group “un-Islamic and morally repugnant,” noted that the Islamic State’s “human rights abuses on the ground are well-documented,” and called on other Muslim community leaders to speak out against the violence. CAIR reiterated the condemnation of the Islamic State as “both un-Islamic and morally repugnant” on August 11, and on August 21, CAIR once again condemned the group, calling the killing of American journalist James Foley “gruesome and barbaric”:

We strongly condemn this gruesome and barbaric killing as a violation of Islamic beliefs and of universally-accepted international norms mandating the protection of prisoners and journalists during conflicts.

The Geneva Conventions, the Quran – Islam’s revealed text – and the traditions (hadith) of the Prophet Muhammad all require that prisoners not be harmed in any way. There can be no excuse or justification for such criminal and bloodthirsty actions.

We also call on those holding Steven Sotloff and other prisoners to immediately release them unharmed so they may return to their loved ones. [Council on American-Islamic Relations, 7/7/14; Council on American-Islamic Relations, 8/11/14; Council on American-Islamic Relations, 8/20/14]

The Muslim Council Of Great Britain: “Violence Has No Place In Religion.” The Muslim Council of Great Britain condemned the Islamic State’s actions and expressed that they do not represent Sunni Muslims, according to The Independent. Shuja Shafi, a member of the council also said: “Violence has no place in religion, violence has no religion. It is prohibited for people to present themselves for destruction.” [The Independent, 7/11/14]

The Islamic Society of North America: The Islamic State’s Actions “Are To Be Denounced And Are In No Way Representative Of What Islam Actually Teaches. The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) released a statement denouncing the Islamic State “for its attacks on Iraq’s religious minorities and the destruction of their places of worship.” ISNA President Imam Mohamed Magid said, “ISIS actions against religious minorities in Iraq violate the Quranic teaching, ‘Let there be no compulsion in religion’ (Surat al-Baqara 2:256),” adding, “Their actions are to be denounced and are in no way representative of what Islam actually teaches.” [The Islamic Society of North America, 8/9/14]

100 Sunni And Shiite U.K. Imams: The Islamic State Is An “Illegitimate, Vicious Group.” As the Huffington Post reported, 100 Sunni and Shiite Imams from the U.K. came together to produce a video denouncing the Islamic State, releasing a statement that they wanted to “come together to emphasise the importance of unity in the UK and to decree ISIS as an illegitimate, vicious group who do not represent Islam in any way.” (Please see below)

Saudi Arabia’s Highest Religious Authority: Terrorists Like The Islamic State Is The “Number One Enemy Of Islam.” On August 19, Al Jazeera reported that Saudi Arabia’s grand mufti, Abdulaziz al-Sheikh, the country’s top religious authority, said that terrorism is anti-Islamic and said that groups like the Islamic State which practice violence are the “number one enemy of Islam”:

Extremist and militant ideas and terrorism which spread decay on Earth, destroying human civilisation, are not in any way part of Islam, but are enemy number one of Islam, and Muslims are their first victims. [Al Jazeera, 8/19/14]

Muslim Public Affairs Council: Condemned The Islamic State And Called For “Stand Against Extremism.” On August 20, the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) released a statement condemning “the barbaric execution of American Journalist James Foley by the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS).” MPAC urged “all people of conscience to take a stand against extremism” and offered condolences to Foley’s family. MPAC also noted the importance of countering ISIS and other extremist groups by working “to empower the mainstream and relegate extremists to the irrelevance they deserve.” [Muslim Public Affairs Council, 8/20/14]

So, the next time you hear someone say, “Few Muslim voices have condemned ISIS or any other extremist group,” know that this statement is clearly not true.

 

 

[ccfcman]

3 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

I'm guessing that many victims of US/European bombing would consider that we in the west are indeed members of such a club. 

Actually they're a little more pragmatic you'll find. People hated Bush and Blair, not the US and the UK.

[Nicho]

35 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Well,  yeah.  If you are in a club that kills little kids and people for no reason at all and actively promotes this in its literature,  change it or leave it.  That is how the world makes progress.

Th fact that there is 1.7 billion makes it even more unforgivable.

 

 

Is this really your opinion? You might be in need of a little education of the countries that are Muslim and their differing leaderships and actions across the world. Might compare some of those actions to some Christian countries in Africa and see how bad that club is as well.

 

[StanBalaban]

Just now, LondonLax said:

How many Muslim people do you speak to on a regular basis?

I'm not religious, my parents are both originally from India but Hindu's, and again not particularly religious, and I live in a Muslim country. When I was in France recently for the England game, there were a couple of occasions where I felt the stares of some of the locals in St. Etienne on accout of my brown skin. Nothing serious, but a tense vibe for sure.

Living in what's considered a liberal and modern Muslim country, where we are free to drink, eat pork and co-habit with the opposite sex, it's still illegal for instance to be a homosexual. In 2016! The reason is that the laws are based on the religion and, even when medical science, genetics and archaeological findings teach us something new in life, the religion will trump this information and negate it.

I've had many a discussion about religion with my Muslim friends who are, to a person lovely, lovely people. I guess I wouldn't class them as my friends otherwise. In previous attacks around the world they are as heartbroken as the rest of society, be under no illusion.

It is fascinating however when the topic does turn to religion. As someone that is not religious myself, they genuinely think I'm a lost soul. If I ask why they chose to be a Muslim the look of dumbfoundedness on their faces tells me it's not a choice. This is the only way of life for them. The correct way, where the teachings from the religion are the most pure and divine thoughts that man can embrace.

My friends will tell me that they are tolerant of all religions (which they most certainly are) and will happily sit in a pub alongside me whilst I'm having a beer, but they cannot imagine or understand the man that has no religion. It's an alien concept.

These are intelligent, compassionate people yet I cannot imagine living in their shoes of being irreversibly indoctrinated (genuinely without intent of malice) virtually since birth.

What is most intriguing perhaps is when young Muslims from Saudi cross the border at the weekends into the UAE, hit the bars and clubs, drinking and picking up girls and boys. Speak to them and ask them why they feel the need to cross the border to do this as opposed to actioning change in their own country and they'll laugh. These very same people by their own admission will grow up to become conservative Muslims once more. The human urge to interact with opposite sex, or the same sex, is constantly being fought and repressed. I've met a few Emirati girls that only have sex my BDUTWU because they wish to appear to be virgins for when they're married. Male Saudi teenagers that engage in sexual activities with their male friends as the alternative is no sex at all, yet for them to speak out or to protest is a protest against god. It simply won't happen. Our VT friend Omar, an articulate and educated poster of many years, has said himself that drinking and homosexuality are sins in his eyes.

For sure, Muslims shouldn't need to apologise for every terrorist action, just as most of us (all be it on a much less serious scale) need not apologise for English football hooligans, but one also needs to understand the thought process and pysche of the Muslim world. The vast majority of Muslims don't want bloodshed either in their homelands or in the Western world. Most will look at the Western way of living and say I don't agree with this lifestyle but let them carry on - but herein lies the problem IMO. The lifestyle that these terrorist seek to punish and conquer with torture and death are still the same Western "choices" that the moderate Muslim will consider a sin. The moderate Muslim still views the west as the land that along with all the good and a potentially better standard of living, still contains loose morals, gays, booze, drugs and gambling. Whilst they certainly don't wish any harm upon their neighbours, internally their teachings from god will similarly prevent them from coming out in support because those principles are ingrained into them.

It's both fascinating and terrifying as the longer I live here in the UAE the more I come to realise that the common ground we need as a planet simply does not exist. 

[mjmooney]

Very good post, StanBalaban.  

[villaglint]

Very interesting Stan thanks for posting

[Keyblade]

2 minutes ago, StanBalaban said:

I'm not religious, my parents are both originally from India but Hindu's, and again not particularly religious, and I live in a Muslim country. When I was in France recently for the England game, there were a couple of occasions where I felt the stares of some of the locals in St. Etienne on accout of my brown skin. Nothing serious, but a tense vibe for sure.

Living in what's considered a liberal and modern Muslim country, where we are free to drink, eat pork and co-habit with the opposite sex, it's still illegal for instance to be a homosexual. In 2016! The reason is that the laws are based on the religion and, even when medical science, genetics and archaeological findings teach us something new in life, the religion will trump this information and negate it.

I've had many a discussion about religion with my Muslim friends who are, to a person lovely, lovely people. I guess I wouldn't class them as my friends otherwise. In previous attacks around the world they are as heartbroken as the rest of society, be under no illusion.

It is fascinating however when the topic does turn to religion. As someone that is not religious myself, they genuinely think I'm a lost soul. If I ask why they chose to be a Muslim the look of dumbfoundedness on their faces tells me it's not a choice. This is the only way of life for them. The correct way, where the teachings from the religion are the most pure and divine thoughts that man can embrace.

My friends will tell me that they are tolerant of all religions (which they most certainly are) and will happily sit in a pub alongside me whilst I'm having a beer, but they cannot imagine or understand the man that has no religion. It's an alien concept.

These are intelligent, compassionate people yet I cannot imagine living in their shoes of being irreversibly indoctrinated (genuinely without intent of malice) virtually since birth.

What is most intriguing perhaps is when young Muslims from Saudi cross the border at the weekends into the UAE, hit the bars and clubs, drinking and picking up girls and boys. Speak to them and ask them why they feel the need to cross the border to do this as opposed to actioning change in their own country and they'll laugh. These very same people by their own admission will grow up to become conservative Muslims once more. The human urge to interact with opposite sex, or the same sex, is constantly being fought and repressed. I've met a few Emirati girls that only have sex my BDUTWU because they wish to appear to be virgins for when they're married. Male Saudi teenagers that engage in sexual activities with their male friends as the alternative is no sex at all, yet for them to speak out or to protest is a protest against god. It simply won't happen. Our VT friend Omar, an articulate and educated poster of many years, has said himself that drinking and homosexuality are sins in his eyes.

For sure, Muslims shouldn't need to apologise for every terrorist action, just as most of us (all be it on a much less serious scale) need not apologise for English football hooligans, but one also needs to understand the thought process and pysche of the Muslim world. The vast majority of Muslims don't want bloodshed either in their homelands or in the Western world. Most will look at the Western way of living and say I don't agree with this lifestyle but let them carry on - but herein lies the problem IMO. The lifestyle that these terrorist seek to punish and conquer with torture and death are still the same Western "choices" that the moderate Muslim will consider a sin. The moderate Muslim still views the west as the land that along with all the good and a potentially better standard of living, still contains loose morals, gays, booze, drugs and gambling. Whilst they certainly don't wish any harm upon their neighbours, internally their teachings from god will similarly prevent them from coming out in support because those principles are ingrained into them.

It's both fascinating and terrifying as the longer I live here in the UAE the more I come to realise that the common ground we need as a planet simply does not exist. 

Great post, good to see some insight. I'm actually moving to the UAE next year so I'm glad to hear it's more liberal because I'm trying to get my party on you feel me 

No seriously, one thing I want to highlight though is the slight parallel you draw between average Muslims (I'm not a fan of the term moderate Muslims) who are do not like the (in their view) lascivious Western lifestyles like booze, gambling sex etc. I mean people are free to hold these views as long as they're not encroaching on anyone else. White Christians also largely have the same stances on these issues too. Extremism is punishing people for it which is entirely different. A "moderate" Atheist (sounds weird right, see why I don't like the term?) might think religion is stupid, but an extremist atheist might want to kill adherents of a certain religion he doesn't like. That's why I think it's going into kind of dangerous waters to draw parallels between extremists and other people simply because they might share some views.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Well,  yeah.  If you are in a club that kills little kids and people for no reason at all and actively promotes this in its literature,  change it or leave it.  That is how the world makes progress.

Th fact that there is 1.7 billion makes it even more unforgivable.

 

 

Look, this shouldn't be an opportunity for everyone to score easy points off each other.

The argument that all muslims are responsible for all muslims and should react, apologise and prevent future hate crime is ridiculous.

People mustn't shelter murderers, people must do their individual bit to make the world better. But come on, don't trot out glib stuff about all muslims. Else, I will require a list from you showing what you've actively done to prevent rape. To stop white cops killing black americans. To stop straight nutters killing gays. To stop white blokes fiddling with little kids. 

If you don't do those things or promote those things, they are not your fault.

Just as the murders yesterday are not the fault of decent people in my town. Get a grip.

[BOF]

Very interesting post @StanBalaban.  Interesting insight into the cognitive dissonance that exists over there.  Maybe the hypocrisy that is demonstrated by the hedonistic younger generation is a small seed that could grow in time.  A lot of time.  But probably not soon enough.