The ISIS threat to Europe

[TrentVilla]

Just now, Genie said:

Yes, try and get around a table with them and we might learn something. Not saying it will sort out all the issues, but what is there to lose?

The connection between your head and your body. 

If you actually think ISIS are interested in sitting around a table trying to find common ground and a resolution then you fundamentally don't understand their aims or motivations.

 

[Genie]

Just now, TrentVilla said:

The connection between your head and your body. 

If you actually think ISIS are interested in sitting around a table trying to find common ground and a resolution then you fundamentally don't understand their aims or motivations.

 

If you do understand then I suspect there is a very well paid job with your name on it.

[sharkyvilla]

We could try and pump money into the refugee camps and build schools that teach science and literature instead of religion, who knows what the kids there could go on to achieve.  Maybe even one day new prosperous cities can be created in the long term.

[TrentVilla]

15 minutes ago, Genie said:

If you do understand then I suspect there is a very well paid job with your name on it.

Understand their aims? It isn't hard to understand those they are pretty well stated. I'm not though suggesting to have anything remotely close to an answer to the problem just simply that your suggestion we can simply sit down and have a chat and try and find common ground or a solution is a little daft.

[Genie]

1 hour ago, TrentVilla said:

The connection between your head and your body. 

If you actually think ISIS are interested in sitting around a table trying to find common ground and a resolution then you fundamentally don't understand their aims or motivations.

 

I didn't suggest their would be common ground, I just said we might learn something because the current hit and hope strategy is having the opposite effect of peace.

Time to think outside of the box.

[TrentVilla]

10 minutes ago, Genie said:

I didn't suggest their would be common ground, I just said we might learn something because the current hit and hope strategy is having the opposite effect of peace.

Time to think outside of the box.

No you suggested sitting down with them as an alternative to military action. Which suggests you think that through negotiations and diplomacy some sort of political solution can be reached, which requires some common ground such as oh I don't know the desire to reach a compromised solution which would be the common ground.

But ISIS don't want to talk, to find a solution, they want conflict they want to create a global caliphate.

There is nothing to learn unless we want to adopt their backward view of the world.

Talking isn't going to achieve anything and I rather suspect you'd struggle to find people willing to go talk to them or to host them coming to to talk to them.

 

[Genie]

I didnt suggest talk as an alternative to anything, just to try and learn something. We're thinking of ways to try and solve a problem we don't really understand. 

Let's carry on fueling their hatred then, it's worked well so far 

[TrentVilla]

 

Oh I give up, this is just daft. 

[TheAuthority]

36 minutes ago, Genie said:

I didnt suggest talk as an alternative to anything, just to try and learn something. We're thinking of ways to try and solve a problem we don't really understand. 

Let's carry on fueling their hatred then, it's worked well so far 

The doctrine of ISIS is well disseminated through social media and in the online world. Their ideology has been developing from Wahhabism Islam for at least 2 decades (arguably longer) and that growth has been observed and documented in the west. We don't have anything to learn which is what you suggest.

We understand the problem, there just isn't a solution to the problem because the 'problem' (at least from our point of view in the rest of the world) is that ISIS want a Islam Theocratic Caliphate from Iraq to southern Spain and ultimately over the entire planet. They want to eradicate all traces of every other culture including modern western civilization. They do not want to negotiate or have any 'common ground.' 

I understand the sentiment that negotiation and diplomacy is a far more appealing alternative to violence however I believe that the situation we are currently witnessing is beyond those ideals.

[villakram]

1 hour ago, TrentVilla said:

 

Oh I give up, this is just daft. 

errr... I think the Taliban were this way once upon a time too, but ya it's clearly them alone with all the intransigence and such...

[will87]

Sickening what's going on in Bangladesh at the moment with all these people getting hacked to death.

[Wainy316]

5 hours ago, Genie said:

If you do understand then I suspect there is a very well paid job with your name on it.

 

England manager?

[TrentVilla]

7 hours ago, villakram said:

errr... I think the Taliban were this way once upon a time too, but ya it's clearly them alone with all the intransigence and such...

The Taliban are nothing like ISIS they are completely different animals with completely different aims. So to are Al Qaeda so much so that neither are really relevant to a discussion of if you can sit and have a chat with ISS.

Yes most terrorist organisations eventually enter into talks, but most terrorist groups aims are linked to a struggle for their homeland and political/religious ideology as was the case with the Taliban.

Now Al Qaeda were different because they wanted to remove Western influence in he Middle East, which is a far bigger aim.

ISIS go way way way further than that.

[Awol]

The Independent reports today that the hostages in Bangladesh were separated into those who could & could not recite verses of the Quran. 

Those who couldn't (men and women) were then tortured to death with "sharp implements" over the next 12 hours. 

It's interesting that ISIS are now being more careful in who they butcher, a tactic already adopted by several AQ affiliates. 

[TrentVilla]

 

It's a tactic was used in Kenya a couple of years ago when people were taken off a bus and those who couldn't were shot in the head.

It does sound rather like those in Dhaka were tortured which is sick new twist.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, TrentVilla said:

The Taliban are nothing like ISIS they are completely different animals with completely different aims. So to are Al Qaeda so much so that neither are really relevant to a discussion of if you can sit and have a chat with ISS.

Yes most terrorist organisations eventually enter into talks, but most terrorist groups aims are linked to a struggle for their homeland and political/religious ideology as was the case with the Taliban.

Now Al Qaeda were different because they wanted to remove Western influence in he Middle East, which is a far bigger aim.

ISIS go way way way further than that.

Ultimately, they are not different animals. They are all homo sapiens, I was going to say human beings, but that didn't sound right. Bombs will never defeat an ideology, so to bring the terror to an end at some point there has to be something other than bombs.

It's in our nature to look for solutions , to seek to change things to our liking, but this looks insoluble. The only thing really to give encouragement is that universally people want safety, food, water, warmth and peace.

Talking, IMO, is not about "us" talking to isis, isis is not primarily "our" problem (though the neo-cons carry plenty of blame) because the impact of isis is on the people who live in the middle east.  Maybe the most we should do is talk to the people who could talk to isis leaders, at some point and mostly just keep the **** out of the way. We tend to make things worse.

[brommy]

I assume the aim of talking is to improve understanding and promote compromise in the hope it will lead to less violence on both sides, but it certainly has some problems:

1)  I don't believe 'the West' have a lot more to understand about Daesh and I'm not sure which of Daesh's aims we'd be willing to accept as a compromise.

2)  I don't believe Daesh are interested in increasing their understanding of anyone who doesn't subscribe to their doctrine and Daesh aren't willing to compromise.

Where does that leave talking?

The long term solution may be through education at the expense of any religious doctrine.

Edited July 3, 2016 by brommy

[blandy]

7 hours ago, brommy said:

The long term solution may be through education at the expense of any religious doctrine.

Be nice, wouldn't it. I don't think ISIS are big on education, either, though.

[villakram]

13 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

The Taliban are nothing like ISIS they are completely different animals with completely different aims. So to are Al Qaeda so much so that neither are really relevant to a discussion of if you can sit and have a chat with ISS.

Yes most terrorist organisations eventually enter into talks, but most terrorist groups aims are linked to a struggle for their homeland and political/religious ideology as was the case with the Taliban.

Now Al Qaeda were different because they wanted to remove Western influence in he Middle East, which is a far bigger aim.

ISIS go way way way further than that.

I hope you do appreciate that the wars we have waged over there have quite a bit to do with the creation of ISIS? Note, the plural there going back 25yrs in terms of direct war and all the way to the 1850s before that. So casting their ideology as something special is a little... errr, I guess I think you're giving them far too much credit.

Ideology is that thing that is a starting point, which inevitably encounters its good friend reality.

ISIS/Daesh have been acting in an unconstrained manner until recently. Thus, reality was this fuzzy thing that idiots/infidels talk about because god/etc. had deemed it necessary for them to succeed. Now, why were they unconstrained? and who was funding them?

The recent change in their fortunes has been brought about by the turning off of the oil/money spigot.... primarily by Russia. We (England/France/USA) watched as huge convoys of oil trucks went about their merry way as they were (are?) useful for our geo-strategic goals, i.e., removing Assad and disrupting the Shia power bloc. 

Now that they are constrained, ideology and reality will be re-acquainted. Given the large number of former Iraqi military in the ISIS power structure, they have many in their ranks who will be capable of talking.

Finally. It's the 4th of July here in USA tomorrow. Where all the freedom and such ideology will be espoused, while in reality... This goes for every social/political/military structure globally. Ruling out talking with ISIS is not a strategy.

[brommy]

4 hours ago, blandy said:

Be nice, wouldn't it. I don't think ISIS are big on education, either, though.

I think we should support and demonstrate the advantages of education to those who live in areas that are not directly controlled by Daesh. As the military conflict continues, Daesh are losing control of the higher populated areas (mostly in Syria and Iraq) and gaining some control in the lower populated areas of Libya. The more people that are educated in a non religious context, the less likely they are to take up arms in support of Daesh. It may take decades, but short of rolling over and all becoming Daesh converts or trying to 'bomb them all to hell', neither of which is acceptable and/or practical, I don't see another way forward.