Mantis Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) Saying people have "lowered their expectations" when they haven't is bad enough, but telling people it's because they "want to defend some billionaire" or the manager is just ridiculous. I don't know why it's so hard for some to accept that others will have differing opinions on the state of the club and it's future direction without resorting to silly accusations. Edited February 19, 2014 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Designer1 Posted February 19, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted February 19, 2014 Not one fan will be happy with the last 3 to 4 seasons. I think where the split/disagreement comes is whether or not you think we are making progress this season to where we should be which, for me at the very least, is top 8 and competing for a top 6 finish. I don't think we have made any progress at all this season. I expect that to be backed up by us finishing within 2 or 3 points and two to three places either way of where we did last season. We will have stood still in that regard. In terms of what is being served up on the pitch then we will have gone backwards especially in comparison to what we were serving up at the back end of last season. Many players I expected after finding their feet at the top level last season have either not progressed or have gone backwards. Lowton, Westwood, Sylla, would certainly fall into that category. Benteke has been a shadow of last season for the most part. New arrivals in Luna, Tonev, and at times Bacuna, have looked way out of their depth. The major, and perhaps the only, positive has been that we have looked much better defensively. Providing of course one injury prone player is fit. If I had to sum up how this season has gone and looks likely to continue to go then I would say both individually and collectively the personnel and club has stagnated and stood still. I had high hopes we would kick on but we simply haven't. I don't see things getting any better next season either unless the manager gets very good backing financially, spends it wisely and bucks his ideas up in terms of finding a system/style of play that means we can at least hold our own at home. The whole playing side, and perhaps the management and coaching side, needs a complete over haul as quite simply many of them are way out of their depth certainly in terms of making progression back to where I think we should be. Excellent post Mark. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 What kind of investment are fans expecting from Lerner next season? More of the same or do we think he's going to go for it like he did in his early years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KjParton Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I can't believe how people thought we'd be Top 8 or Top 6 this season..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) I can't believe how people thought we'd be Top 8 or Top 6 this season..? Does anybody on here think that? I haven't read one post saying they think we should this season be finishing in the top 8 and rightly so given what has happened over the preceding 3 seasons. I believe we would all like to see progress being made in getting us back into the top 8. This season it hasn't happened though. The league position with in two or three places and points total with in 2 or 3 either way compared to last season will I believe back that opinion up come the end of the season. Perhaps more importantly for me in terms of what I am basing my opinion on is the fact that what I have seen with my own eyes on the pitch certainly doesn't equate to anything like progress. Defensively we have improved providing Vlaar stays fit. Every other aspect of our play has gone backwards though and for much of this season what we have been served up has been dire. The reasons for the lack of progress are many. Lack of finances, purchasing the wrong players with the finances provided, poor coaching, players out of form, being too reliant on two or three players being fit and firing, players that showed potential last season not kicking on this season, the manager picking the wrong formation/players... Edited February 19, 2014 by markavfc40 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I can't believe how people thought we'd be Top 8 or Top 6 this season..? The reasons for the lack of progress are many. Lack of finances, purchasing the wrong players with the finances provided, poor coaching, players just simply of form, being too reliant on two or three players being fit and firing, players that showed potential last season not kicking on this season ..... Lack of finances: Effects every club below the top 4/5, but our spending is poor for any Prem club. Never mind one that has a recent history of big spending. However, there was a reason behind the lack of funding. Wrong players: When you're spending on average 2m a player then you have to take the hits with the misses. IMO the players we actually spent decent money on have looked our best signings. Which shows that if we start to spend bigger in the summer, then there should be more "hits". Poor coaching: If the coaching is poor, how have we seen the best of Delph, Gabby, Guzan, even Marc? Form: Linked to injuries. Eg. Benteke out of form - carrying a knock. Defence not playing well - Missing Vlaar. Being reliant on 2/3 players: Most teams are. I'll give you the last one. Westy/Lowton/Sylla/Andi have disappointed me. But for every player that hasn't kicked on, there are some that have. Vlaar and Clark in particular. I wouldn't say there's a total lack of progress this season. It's below where I thought we'd be but there's reasons for that. It has been frustrating as hell to watch though; losing Okore/Benteke (didn't get to speed til December), then losing Vlaar. It's not the amount of injuries we've had, it's the timing of them that has scuppered us. Then it's frustrating to see us dominate Liverpool at Anfield, then whimper against West Ham and Everton. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Wrong players: When you're spending on average 2m a player then you have to take the hits with the misses. IMO the players we actually spent decent money on have looked our best signings. Which shows that if we start to spend bigger in the summer, then there should be more "hits". Poor coaching: If the coaching is poor, how have we seen the best of Delph, Gabby, Guzan, even Marc? In terms of coaching I am talking in the main. As for the players you have mentioned I love Gabby but he hasn't shown anything like the best form of his career under Lambert and certainly hasn't improved. Delph most definitely has improved. Albrighton has looked good recently but has had excellent periods under previous managers and then gone off the boil. I agree it is way more difficult to get it right when you are spending an average of 2 mill a player and in terms of the caliber of player we have been able to attract the blame for that would certainly lay more at Lerners door than Lamerts. However he has made mistakes. Tonev, Luna, Sylla look way out of their depth, Helenius hasn't been used, Bennett whilst I still think has potential has been poor. Lambert decided to go with quantity and potential over going for bringing in fewer players but as well as potential signing two or three players of proven quality and a bit of nous and experience at this level who could offer leadership. He could have filled the gaps in terms of quantity by using two or three of the younger lads to fill the gaps in the squad who would have done no worse than some of the players we have signed. I have no problem with others thinking progress has been made this season. I just don't see it in what is being served up on the pitch and that will unfortunately I imagine be reflected in our league placing and points total being very similar to last season. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers13 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 He didn't really have the chance to go for fewer players, he had to bring in almost an entire squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KjParton Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I think where the split/disagreement comes is whether or not you think we are making progress this season to where we should be which, for me at the very least, is top 8 and competing for a top 6 finish. Sorry Mark, it appears i interpreted this part of your post to mean this season. I see you actually meant where we should be eventually. I was always though under the impression we would be hovering around 10-13th, and at the moment thats where we have been for the majority of the season. Whereas last season we were spending the majority flirting around the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted February 19, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted February 19, 2014 What has me worried is not the playing roster. It's bargain basement - we all know that. Nor does individual players "regressing" or being out of form worry me - that happens to top players/teams too (Ozil, anyone?) What does worry me is that I see no sign of improvement in the way we play. Basics like ball retention, movement, passing and dead ball play (even our throw ins get me down) are not just poor, but appear worse than last year. This gives me absolutely no confidence that a few "quality" signings in the summer will actually make a difference. Lambert is failing here. I know a lot has been said about our improved defense this season. I would put that down to Vlaar finding his feet, Clark maturing and Lambert persisting with 5 at the back with 3 defensive midfielders in front (something our former manager was derided for). That doesn't represent an improvement in our style of play - just a mentality to "park the bus"..... .... and, for the most part, it hasn't worked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Appear is probably the key word there. While we haven't had a great season by any means, some of these things at least must be better else we wouldn't have been able to keep ourselves out of the relegation mire up until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) I think where the split/disagreement comes is whether or not you think we are making progress this season to where we should be which, for me at the very least, is top 8 and competing for a top 6 finish. Sorry Mark, it appears i interpreted this part of your post to mean this season. I see you actually meant where we should be eventually. I was always though under the impression we would be hovering around 10-13th, and at the moment thats where we have been for the majority of the season. Whereas last season we were spending the majority flirting around the bottom. No need to apologize mate. From 10th to bottom is that congested this season that it is possible we could finish on less points but higher than we did last season. Unless we have a massive upturn or major dip then there will be very little either way - maybe two or three points more or less, on what we finished on last season. Therefore we will have stood still. Just as worrying for me though is the fact our style of play has been dire for the most part and in that respect I believe we have gone backwards. I would love to be on here here saying I think we have improved a little overall but I just don't see it. Defensively when Vlaar is fit we look much more solid than a year ago but going forward in terms of ball retention we are terrible and at home in terms of breaking sides down we don't have a clue. Back end of last season there was a bit of a feel good factor just starting to poke its head back into Villa Park. That is now long gone. The chance was there to kick on but it hasn't happened and the failings started in the summer transfer window. The business we did was all wrong. We had been crying out since Lambert arrived for a couple of players of proven quality at this level with a bit of nous who could lead those around them. Gareth Barry was a cracking example of what was required. I'd have sacrificed the signings of Luna, Tonev and Helenius in the summer to bring him in as he would have had a much bigger impact. We are so reliant on Vlaar in terms of leadership it is frightening and it is something that needed and still needs addressing badly. This season for me has been a wasted one. The opportunity was there to kick on but we have treaded water. Edited February 20, 2014 by markavfc40 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted February 20, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted February 20, 2014 Appear is probably the key word there. While we haven't had a great season by any means, some of these things at least must be better else we wouldn't have been able to keep ourselves out of the relegation mire up until now. Mark says it better than I can (emphasis mine) : From 10th to bottom is that congested this season that it is possible we could finish on less points but higher than we did last season. Unless we have a massive upturn or major dip then there will be very little either way - maybe two or three points more or less, on what we finished on last season. Therefore we will have stood still. Just as worrying for me though is the fact our style of play has been dire for the most part and in that respect I believe we have gone backwards. .... This season for me has been a wasted one. The opportunity was there to kick on but we have treaded water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 BJ10, your 'lowered expectations' guff IS a 'better fan' comment. You think that lowering expectations is bad, you think others (many others, by the way you always bring it up) have lowered their expectations, and therefore they are doing something bad compared to your expectations. Ie. "I haven't lowered my expectations, unlike you" = better fan than thou. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 BJ10, your 'lowered expectations' guff IS a 'better fan' comment. You think that lowering expectations is bad, you think others (many others, by the way you always bring it up) have lowered their expectations, and therefore they are doing something bad compared to your expectations. Ie. "I haven't lowered my expectations, unlike you" = better fan than thou. Haha If that's what you think maybe it says more about what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Enlighten me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I said the last 3 years are arguably the worst. Yes there's been other shocking periods. And the home form is the worst. No ones denied that yet. Moaning at fans? Don't think I've moaned, I've said some have lowered their expectations. That's all. I find it amusing. 18 months ago you were mocked for thinking we'd be in a relegation battle. Now 18 months on its realistic to accept two in a row. Funny that. Almost sounds like expectations being lowered to me.you're wrong Saying it over and over again doesn't make you right. Understanding where we are now and being happy in context is not lowering expectations of where we want the club to be. I don't think its wrong. Like I said you had people go from "no chance of a relegation battle" to accepting 1 and then accepting 2 and not only accepting two relegation battled years but accepting the awful football and record breaking club lows. And why? To defend either a manager they like or a billionaire owner they like. We were 6th with the 6th highest wage bill. That was the big mess we were in. There's no way what we've seen over the last 4 years is the only way we could have fixed that mess. And I don't believe the last two years are the only way we could have resolved other issues. I think being content with that is lowering expectations of the club you support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted February 20, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted February 20, 2014 I said the last 3 years are arguably the worst. Yes there's been other shocking periods. And the home form is the worst. No ones denied that yet. Moaning at fans? Don't think I've moaned, I've said some have lowered their expectations. That's all. I find it amusing. 18 months ago you were mocked for thinking we'd be in a relegation battle. Now 18 months on its realistic to accept two in a row. Funny that. Almost sounds like expectations being lowered to me. you're wrong Saying it over and over again doesn't make you right. Understanding where we are now and being happy in context is not lowering expectations of where we want the club to be. I don't think its wrong. Like I said you had people go from "no chance of a relegation battle" to accepting 1 and then accepting 2 and not only accepting two relegation battled years but accepting the awful football and record breaking club lows. And why? To defend either a manager they like or a billionaire owner they like. We were 6th with the 6th highest wage bill. That was the big mess we were in. There's no way what we've seen over the last 4 years is the only way we could have fixed that mess. And I don't believe the last two years are the only way we could have resolved other issues. I think being content with that is lowering expectations of the club you support. There is absolutely no reason to assume that the only motive for accepting the current situation is wanting to defend either a manager or a billionaire that people "like". To say this would indicate to me that you haven't read the last two pages of this thread. The fact that you insist on bringing this up in almost every thread you participate in, would indicate that you haven't read any of the responses for weeks/months in there either. Otherwise you would be aware that a variety of people have expressed a variety of reasons for accepting the current state of the club. Not thinking it's great and jumping up and down singing hallelujah, but just accepting that it might be part of a longer process (for whatever reason). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stevo985 Posted February 20, 2014 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) I said the last 3 years are arguably the worst. Yes there's been other shocking periods. And the home form is the worst. No ones denied that yet. Moaning at fans? Don't think I've moaned, I've said some have lowered their expectations. That's all. I find it amusing. 18 months ago you were mocked for thinking we'd be in a relegation battle. Now 18 months on its realistic to accept two in a row. Funny that. Almost sounds like expectations being lowered to me. you're wrong Saying it over and over again doesn't make you right. Understanding where we are now and being happy in context is not lowering expectations of where we want the club to be. I don't think its wrong. Like I said you had people go from "no chance of a relegation battle" to accepting 1 and then accepting 2 and not only accepting two relegation battled years but accepting the awful football and record breaking club lows. And why? To defend either a manager they like or a billionaire owner they like. We were 6th with the 6th highest wage bill. That was the big mess we were in. There's no way what we've seen over the last 4 years is the only way we could have fixed that mess. And I don't believe the last two years are the only way we could have resolved other issues. I think being content with that is lowering expectations of the club you support. But you're confusing what people want NOW with what people want long term. Nobody is happy with where the club is. You find me one Villa fan who is happy with this season in isolation. The point is anyone who has accepted this season is looking at the long term. They're accepting it as part of a rebuilding plan. THey might be wrong, and it might all fall to pieces. That doesn't mean they've lowered expectations. If you could see the future and it showed that this was it, this is what we have to expect for the next 10, 15, 20 years then not one villa fan would be happy with that. If they were, then I would be totally in agreement with you. Expectations would have been lowered. But that's not the case. You know it isn't the case, yet you trot out this lowered expectations line in every flipping post as a way to look down on anyone who isn't utterly disgusted with everything about Paul Lambert. Or say the only possible way we could not be totally enraged with where we are is because we have a hard on for the manager or owner. it's bullshit. You know it's bullshit, I know it's bullshit, everyone reading it knows it's bullshit. So do us all a favour and leave it out. Criticism is absolutely fine. We'll all have a detailed debate about what you think lambert has done wrong and what we think he's done right. No one has any right to deny you that. But peddling this better fan bollocks is absolute nonsense and needs to be nipped in the bud before this place becomes anymore **** miserable than it is already Edited February 20, 2014 by Stevo985 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilchard Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I think you'd have to have a screw loose not to have lowered you expectations when you look at the budget, talent available and what other teams are doing. No offence to anyone intended, mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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