Paul Lambert

[romavillan]

All things considered and combined - fan base, income, history, location then this club as a bare minimum should comfortably be looking at no worse than top 8, competing for a top 6 finish and be competitive in the cup competitions.

 

 

That's completely what I'd like too, considering those factors it shoudl be acheivable. I think the problem comes when some people (myself included) think that what Lambert is trying to do is get us there, and that we shoudl be patient with him. He's cut £200k a week off the wages, radically changing the squad in a fairly short space of time. The deadwood/bomb squad is still not all out the door. It seems some people on here want to argue that anyone who thinks we should be patient has "low expectations" and that we should be fighting for 6th right now. Nothing less is good enough.

What if it takes another 2/3 years to get there? Does the journey become worthwhile then? Does that mean my expectations are too low that I accept that it will take a while to get there on a financially sound footing?

I don't think being prepared to go through the bad to get to the good means I'm setting the bar low, if anything it's harder to do it the way we are trying to do it now than how a lot of clubs have tried and are trying to do it. Risking the future of their clubs in the process.

[Stevo985]

Exactly. Being patient doesn't mean we've lowered our expectations. it's just that we see this as a rung on the ladder to getting there.

 

Like I said, we might be wrong and it might all go tits up (even more).

 

But that doesn't mean that we've lowered our expectations now. Just that we're not expecting to be challenging the top 4 over night.

[danjmorris93]

I personally set the bar pretty high when it comes to what I expect from this great club and I certainly wouldn't have those expectations lowered by another supporter.

As supporters for me we deserve way better than what has been served up over the last 4 years. All things considered and combined - fan base, income, history, location then this club as a bare minimum should comfortably be looking at no worse than top 8, competing for a top 6 finish and be competitive in the cup competitions.

 

You aren't as bad as some of the people on here in terms of expectations but you are still deluded. For us to compete with top 6 and "comfortably finish in the top 8" lol, we would have to finish higher than all of these.

 

Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, Tottenham - (Obviously, but that is the top 5 taken, much better squads, much more money)

Man Utd, Everton and Even Newcastle all have more money to spend than us and have better more experienced squads so in this position we couldn't realistically hope to compete for a full season with them and definitely not EXPECT to finish in place of one of them.

 

Then you have teams like Southampton, Swansea and West Ham. The former and latter spending much more than us this season, and low and behold look where we are currently? roughly near these guys bar Southampton who have had a solid season. Now to me that is progression and I firmly believe this is the sort of position we will finish in.

 

People need to stop being so critical, use their brains for a few minutes and actually think of the scale of job Lambert was given when he chose to join us on this plan and be REALISTIC in the sense that he has dealt with our biggest fault last season of our leaky defence whilst being hindered by losing his most hopeful defensive signing and turned us back into a mid table team which we definitely WEREN'T last season. 

 

If we are still saying this sort of thing next season and still have the occasional scare of relegation then I personally will be a little more disappointed, but even then I would say finishing 8th/9th next year with a half decent cup run is the BEST we can hope for and if you think otherwise you are deluded.

Edited February 19, 2014 by danjmorris93

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

I think every Villa fan thinks we should - and wants us to - be challenging near the top and regularly finishing in the top 6, but I personally want us to be there regularly, I want us to be knocking on the door of the top 4, maybe even push for the title occasionally too. And if that means we have to take a few years of shite whilst we build the foundations, then so be it. I think the way we are currently going about things is the way to build a sustainable future. Next year for me is when the real questions about this "plan" can be asked, we should have built those foundations by now and should be looking to add quality and aim higher up the league. If it wasn't for Houllier's heart problems, I reckon we would have already built them and be knocking back on the door of top 6/8. I think that was the plan all along with Houllier, an experienced manager to come in and build the foundations for a younger manager such as Martinez or Lambert to come in and finish the job. Then we ballsed up with McLeish and had to start again with Lambert from even further back than where Houllier started.

 

Look at the MON years. Yes, it was fantastic and probably the only time during my lifetime where I've felt properly proud to be a Villa fan. But what have we got to show for it? A couple of memories of Wembley and a Europa League group stage. In other words, naff all. For the three years we had on the lower limit of the top, we've only got memories and 4 years of crap that followed. How we got there was unsustainable and left us in a pile of shit.

 

I want us to be sustainable in the upper echelons of the league. I want to be mentioned in the same breath as at least Everton, Tottenham, Man Utd and Newcastle, not Swansea, Stoke, West Ham and Norwich. I want Cup wins and forays into the latter stages of European competitions.

 

But I'm also realistic over the fact this won't be possible without unsustainable spending for another few years. I'd rather it take 4/5 years to get to that point than 2 if it meant we were there for longer and also meant we didn't go to absolute shite when the bubble bursts, which I think the way we are going will do for us, if done properly. As for lowered expectations, it's only immediate expectations that are lowered, as it's unrealistic to expect a side who only survived relegation thanks to Wigan losing away to Arsenal days before the last game of the season, to be finishing any higher than 10th-14th.

 

Long term expectations will always be for us to be around 5/6th or higher, but short term will always be changing and be determined by what happened the season before and what is realistic for us to expect in terms of improvement.

 

If we want to be back where we "belong" we need to build slowly to get there, unless someone like Bill Gates suddenly decides he wants to bankroll us. It will take slow progression so that when we get there we will have a squad that is able to cope with the demands of challenging that high in the league, and we will have a squad that not only will we be able to build upon but it will be able to win Cups too.

[Big_John_10]

Better fan? Interesting some think that when it hasn't been mentioned. I don't see how having higher expectations makes you a 'better fan'

I think there are people who have lowered their expectations of the club they support so they can defend a manager they like or a billionaire they like. Doesn't make you less of a fan I'm just not sure why you'd do it.

[Stevo985]

Better fan? Interesting some think that when it hasn't been mentioned. I don't see how having higher expectations makes you a 'better fan'

I think there are people who have lowered their expectations of the club they support so they can defend a manager they like or a billionaire they like. Doesn't make you less of a fan I'm just not sure why you'd do it.

Yeah you think that. But you're wrong. Nobody has lowered their expectations.

being satisfied with where we are in the short term does not equate to lowered expectations.

 

Otherwise we'd all have lowered our expectations if we'd been happy at any point since winning the european cup.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Stevo985

[Big_John_10]

This has been arguably the worst 3 year period in the history of the club and is easily the worst home form in the history of the club.

The fact that actually gets defended so that the manager and billionaire owner can be defended from criticism is lowered expectations IMO.

Its a disgrace how far we've fallen, to defend it means you've lowered where you think the club should currently be. If you think the manager and billionaire owner deserve to be defended for the current position then IMO you have low expectations for the club you support.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Big_John_10

[Zatman]

their is nobody defending it, we can just see that it takes time to build back up from the mess a lot of mismanagement has got us in. Some people just dont seem to have patience

 

 

Rome wasnt built in a day

[romavillan]

This has been arguably the worst 3 year period in the history of the club and is easily the worst home form in the history of the club.

The fact that actually gets defended so that the manager and billionaire owner can be defended from criticism is lowered expectations IMO.

Its a disgrace how far we've fallen, to defend it means you've lowered where you think the club should currently be. If you think the manager and billionaire owner deserve to be defended for the current position then IMO you have low expectations for the club you support.

 

It is by no means the worst 3 year period in the club's history. 

 

"Mercer's forced retirement from the club in 1964 signalled a period of deep turmoil. The most successful club in England was struggling to keep pace with changes in the modern game, with Villa being relegated for the third time, under manager Dick Taylor in 1967. The following season the fans called for the board to resign as Villa finished 16th in the Second Division. With mounting debts and Villa lying at the bottom of Division Two, the board sacked Cummings (the manager brought in to replace Taylor), and within weeks the entire board resigned under overwhelming pressure from fans.[20]"

 

I'd say that's a bit worse, wouldn't you?

 

Also, I think people are defending the idea that it might take a few years to get back to where we want to be on a sound footing. That doesn't equate to lowered expectations either.

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

Of course people have lowered there expectations of where we should currently​ be, as I'm sure you've noticed we've been in 2 - arguably 3, it depends how you see Houllier's season - relegation battles in the last 3 seasons and could be heading for another.

 

But that doesn't change where people think we should eventually be or where we want to be.

 

I fail to see how thinking that a year after a relegation battle that expecting to finish between 10-14th is anything other than realistic, and how that is defending Lerner or Lambert is baffling. It's called being patient, seeing that it is better off for the club in the long term to build slowly towards getting back to the top, instead of chucking money at it, which I think is the only way for a quick fix at this point of time and in our situation.

 

Every Villa fan out there wants us to be at the top again, but we should be aiming to get there sustain-ably so that we stay there and don't fall back on our arses when the bubbles bursts. 

[TRO]

I am clear that the majority of argument regarding the lack of progress relates to money.....I am not disregarding that, but it relates more to the quality of signing in the first place....on that, I still concur.

 

...but my worry is, to add to that, I do not see any real progress with the players that we have bought, particularly as they are young and should in theory, be progressing....thats the bit that has disappointed me.

 

I have seen previous managers do it.....so naturally i was expecting it again.

 

not sure what to think.....It all looks a bit status quo to me.

[StefanAVFC]

Jesus Christ, a period where we've still managed to stay in the top tier, recorded some good wins over top teams and and the opportunity to see good players in the flesh is the worst in the club's history? How about the lows of division 2? How about having the 1982 team completely dismantled? This is nothing to do with low expectations. It just staggers me that you can class 3 years in the top division as the worst in the history of the club when we've been so much lower. Again with black and white thinking. 'Because the fans defend the manager, that means they are happy with what is going on'. No, no no no NO. You only have 2 viewpoints.

 

1) Defend the manager/owner/players. You have low expectations.

2) Slag off the manager/owner/players. You have high expectations.

 

Where is the middle ground?

 

Finally, you constantly have a go at people for 'moaning at the fans' yet you consistently do it by saying we have 'low expectations'. Slight hypocrisy no?

Edited February 19, 2014 by StefanAVFC

[TRO]

I'm not sure how you can lower expectations any lower than not expecting to win at home....can anyone explain, how it can get any lower.

 

when I enter the club on matchdays, I don't hear anyone say they think we will win....thats gone away with the fairies.

[Big_John_10]

I said the last 3 years are arguably the worst. Yes there's been other shocking periods. And the home form is the worst. No ones denied that yet.

Moaning at fans? Don't think I've moaned, I've said some have lowered their expectations. That's all.

I find it amusing. 18 months ago you were mocked for thinking we'd be in a relegation battle. Now 18 months on its realistic to accept two in a row. Funny that. Almost sounds like expectations being lowered to me.

[TRO]

Jesus Christ, a period where we've still managed to stay in the top tier, recorded some good wins over top teams and and the opportunity to see good players in the flesh is the worst in the club's history? How about the lows of division 2? How about having the 1982 team completely dismantled? This is nothing to do with low expectations. It just staggers me that you can class 3 years in the top division as the worst in the history of the club when we've been so much lower. Again with black and white thinking. 'Because the fans defend the manager, that means they are happy with what is going on'. No, no no no NO. You only have 2 viewpoints.

 

1) Defend the manager/owner/players. You have low expectations.

2) Slag off the manager/owner/players. You have high expectations.

 

Where is the middle ground?

 

Finally, you constantly have a go at people for 'moaning at the fans' yet you consistently do it by saying we have 'low expectations'. Slight hypocrisy no?

 

You make a decent point.....worst in history, a touch of Hyperbole I suspect there.

 

Blimey watching Mike Ferguson and Dave Simmons was much worse and they was amongst the better ones.....think Tommy Cummings was manager, they were tough ole days them.

[The_Lions_Roar]

I said the last 3 years are arguably the worst. Yes there's been other shocking periods. And the home form is the worst. No ones denied that yet.

Moaning at fans? Don't think I've moaned, I've said some have lowered their expectations. That's all.

I find it amusing. 18 months ago you were mocked for thinking we'd be in a relegation battle. Now 18 months on its realistic to accept two in a row. Funny that. Almost sounds like expectations being lowered to me.

Its called understanding what's going on at the club.

Do we agree with it? No.

[markavfc40]

Not one fan will be happy with the last 3 to 4 seasons.

I think where the split/disagreement comes is whether or not you think we are making progress this season to where we should be which, for me at the very least, is top 8 and competing for a top 6 finish.

I don't think we have made any progress at all this season. I expect that to be backed up by us finishing within 2 or 3 points and two to three places either way of where we did last season. We will have stood still in that regard. In terms of what is being served up on the pitch then we will have gone backwards especially in comparison to what we were serving up at the back end of last season.

Many players I expected after finding their feet at the top level last season have either not progressed or have gone backwards. Lowton, Westwood, Sylla, would certainly fall into that category. Benteke has been a shadow of last season for the most part. New arrivals in Luna, Tonev, and at times Bacuna, have looked way out of their depth.

The major, and perhaps the only, positive has been that we have looked much better defensively. Providing of course one injury prone player is fit.

If I had to sum up how this season has gone and looks likely to continue to go then I would say both individually and collectively the personnel and club has stagnated and stood still. I had high hopes we would kick on but we simply haven't. I don't see things getting any better next season either unless the manager gets very good backing financially, spends it wisely and bucks his ideas up in terms of finding a system/style of play that means we can at least hold our own at home. The whole playing side, and perhaps the management and coaching side, needs a complete over haul as quite simply many of them are way out of their depth certainly in terms of making progression back to where I think we should be.

Edited February 19, 2014 by markavfc40

[Stevo985]

I said the last 3 years are arguably the worst. Yes there's been other shocking periods. And the home form is the worst. No ones denied that yet.

Moaning at fans? Don't think I've moaned, I've said some have lowered their expectations. That's all.

I find it amusing. 18 months ago you were mocked for thinking we'd be in a relegation battle. Now 18 months on its realistic to accept two in a row. Funny that. Almost sounds like expectations being lowered to me.

you're wrong

Saying it over and over again doesn't make you right.

Understanding where we are now and being happy in context is not lowering expectations of where we want the club to be.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Stevo985

[Hanky]

Progress on points and league position I will try not to comment on until the end of the season. Progress in terms of performance? Not for me. We have almost certainly gone backwards in that regard. I guess that one is a matter of opinion rather than fact though.

[romavillan]

I said the last 3 years are arguably the worst. Yes there's been other shocking periods. And the home form is the worst. No ones denied that yet.

Moaning at fans? Don't think I've moaned, I've said some have lowered their expectations. That's all.

I find it amusing. 18 months ago you were mocked for thinking we'd be in a relegation battle. Now 18 months on its realistic to accept two in a row. Funny that. Almost sounds like expectations being lowered to me.

 

Yes you said arguably the worst. It isn't arguably the worst though by any stretch of the imagination. You can at least admit thatìs a load of bollocks surely? 

 

The period I quoted was horrendous, from '64 to '67, club falling apart, board resigning after scraping the lows of Division 2, but guess what? IT GOT WORSE...

"After much speculation, control of the club was bought by London financier Pat Matthews, who also brought in Doug Ellis as chairman.[20] However, new ownership could not prevent Villa being relegated to the Third Division for the first time at the end of the 1969–70 season."

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just imagine if you'd have been on a forum then BJ10? I shudder to think...