Leandro Bacuna

[Michael118]

If I used the final 12 games of the season as a sample (games after Sherwood arrived), I wouldn't be surprised if he rated 1st or 2nd. Not bad for a 2nd year player from a team who just survived relegation.

[HanoiVillan]

If the best case that can be made for him is that he had a run of 12 good games, not last season or the season before last, but the season before that, then I consider this pretty much 'point proven' to be honest. 

[Michael118]

2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

If the best case that can be made for him is that he had a run of 12 good games, not last season or the season before last, but the season before that, then I consider this pretty much 'point proven' to be honest. 

How many of our players have had a 'run of 12 good games' since the end of 14/15?

Westwood also had a good run during that time and fell away the following season like everyone else. He's started off very positively at Burnley.

 

[weedman]

In Marlon Harewood's first ever season in the PL, in a struggling side, he scored 16 goals and was one of their best players. 

 

1 decent run does not make a good player. Playing well in 10% of games, and awful in 90% doesn't make you a good player that's playing badly, it makes you a bad player that had a good spell once.

If he did it consistently then I'm sure many more would agree with you, but he hasn't, he's been bang average (at best) over his time here. Believing he has potential to be better is fine (personally I do not, but each to their own), believing he already is better because of a good 12 game spell 3 years ago is crazy 

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, Michael118 said:

I see him as one of our better players and one of the few we have who would be able to cut it at Premier League level. 

He's one of our worst players, at least amongst those who regularly get game time/

He's already shown he can't cut it at Premier League level. He was awful in the Premier league and he's awful in the Championship.

 

When you add to that he clearly has an attitude problem he's basically a liability.

If someone offered us money for him this summer we should snap their arms off.

[Michael118]

32 minutes ago, weedman said:

In Marlon Harewood's first ever season in the PL, in a struggling side, he scored 16 goals and was one of their best players. 

 

1 decent run does not make a good player. Playing well in 10% of games, and awful in 90% doesn't make you a good player that's playing badly, it makes you a bad player that had a good spell once.

If he did it consistently then I'm sure many more would agree with you, but he hasn't, he's been bang average (at best) over his time here. Believing he has potential to be better is fine (personally I do not, but each to their own), believing he already is better because of a good 12 game spell 3 years ago is crazy 

 

Gueye, Clark, Westwood, Albrighton you could argue were ''bang average at best' for us as well. It didn't take any of them long to look like different players once they moved on.

I have Bacuna in the same category. The 12 games at the end of 14/15 were a glimpse of what he can do in a team that was functioning well. There's no reason he can't get back to that form and improve further at the right club, with the right players around him or under the right manager.  

[osmark86]

2 minutes ago, Michael118 said:

Gueye, Clark, Westwood, Albrighton you could argue were ''bang average at best' for us as well. It didn't take any of them long to look like different players once they moved on.

I have Bacuna in the same category. The 12 games at the end of 14/15 were a glimpse of what he can do in a team that was functioning well. There's no reason he can't get back to that form and improve further at the right club, with the right players around him or under the right manager.  

Bacuna has been here for ages though. Maybe he will fit better in a different side, but let's be honest. He's had ample opportunity to be one of those "right" players that should get other players around HIM performing better at this point in time. I do not for the life of me see any loss in us parting ways with him after having had no particular impact over the last 4 seasons. I say that without any speck of disdain for the fella either. I think he's average flirting with a tad of shite, but I also think he's been given enough time to prove us otherwise.

[weedman]

1 minute ago, Michael118 said:

Gueye, Clark, Westwood, Albrighton you could argue were ''bang average at best' for us as well. It didn't take any of them long to look like different players once they moved on.

I have Bacuna in the same category. The 12 games at the end of 14/15 were a glimpse of what he can do in a team that was functioning well. There's no reason he can't get back to that form and improve further at the right club, with the right players around him or under the right manager.  

Is that true though? I can't remember too many thinking that Gueye was bang average, he just couldn't hold us together completely on his own. Given that we were comparing him with Sanchez I think most rated him fairly highly. I've said before on Clark he was never a bad player, he was just capable of some almighty cock ups (pretty common with young defenders) and those mistakes did blinker a lot of our perceptions of him, now he's maturing its not that surprising he's ironing some of those errors out (being a division lower certainly helped him as well). Westwood is doing now what he did for us, not a great deal, playing tidy non risk football and not setting the world alight, and Albrighton was similar to the situation with Cahill, not quite good enough for our starting 11 yet, but good enough to not want to be a bench warmer. He wouldn't be the player he is today if we hadn't sold him, that move suited everyone.

Bacuna is totally different, he doesn't just "make a few errors", his overall play simply doesn't have enough quality, he doesn't even have a proper position. He's not been hampered by injuries or not given enough chances, he simply isn't good enough to maintain high level performances for a season, a 12 game spell where everything clicked and he looked good that he has never managed to replicate doesn't change that 

[Mjvilla]

37 minutes ago, Michael118 said:

Gueye, Clark, Westwood, Albrighton you could argue were ''bang average at best' for us as well. It didn't take any of them long to look like different players once they moved on.

I have Bacuna in the same category. The 12 games at the end of 14/15 were a glimpse of what he can do in a team that was functioning well. There's no reason he can't get back to that form and improve further at the right club, with the right players around him or under the right manager.  

I personally rated albrightom and gueye and am not surprised to see them do well elsewhere. 

This the Clark who performed well IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP for Newcastle and now they have been promoted, they have just spent money a brand spanking new centre back, Florian Lejeune. Who do you think he will replace Clark or Lascelles? I'm pretty sure we both know the answer to that question. Benitez bought Clark as a cheap, decent CHAMPIONSHIP centre half to help them go up. I think Benitez has replaced Clark with someone he thinks is of a better standard because he knows Clark struggles in the prem league.

And Westwood, who took a lot of uneccesary stick from Villa fans granted, but who played second fiddle to Barton initially and now Burnley are trying to sign Whelan and also looking to splash £10million on Jack Cork. Both central midfielders. One can only assume that Dyche hasn't been impressed with Westwood enough to trust him enough so is using him as a squad player. For Burnley. 

Time will tell wether you are correct, or I am. But I think with both those players you've used falling down the pecking orders in their current squad, then I (and many others) are starting to be proved correct.

And so with Bacuna, despite your insistence, I believe you're wrong about his ability. As I believe you are wrong with Clark and Westwood which is starting to be proven. The question is begged 'If Bacuna is as good as you make out (mid table prem league) then why hasn't a mid table prem league team (with a decent manager who could give him his freedom which would suit him down to a tee) taken the chance and signed him? He would be relatively cheap and wages wouldn't be extreme so there should be a swarm of mid table premier league teams circling. But there's not, I doubt we could get rid on the cheap to a mid table premier league team if we wanted. Which speaks huge volumes about his ability to me. 

[Stevo985]

23 minutes ago, Michael118 said:

Gueye, Clark, Westwood, Albrighton you could argue were ''bang average at best' for us as well. It didn't take any of them long to look like different players once they moved on.

 

None of this is really true though.

Gueye was by far our best player in the season we went down, and was probably the only player to emerge from that season with any credit. Whilst he still didn't look great, it was obvious to a lot of people that he was a good player.

I don't think Clark looked like a different player. He just dropped down to the Championship. Just as Nathan Baker looks a much better player at this level, so did Clark. I fully expect Clark to be his limited self if he gets game time back in the prem with Newcastle.

Westwood has looked ok at burnley. I'd say he's looked the same there as he did in the Prem with us. An ok player, nothing more.

Albrighton is probably the best ammo for your argument as he's clearly been better in a much improved team. That's not really evidence that bacuna would do the same though. I'd be confident if Albrighton had still been here with us he'd have shone in the Championship a lot more than Bacuna has.

 

If Bacuna was as good as you think he is (and I cannot stress enough how wrong you are), then he would have shown similar signs. He'd have either been a player that emerged with some credit from our poor premier league seasons, like Gueye; he'd have shown that he's competent at a level more suited to him like Clark has; or he'd have shone at a level that is beneath him like Albrighton probably would have.

In reality, apart from a very short spell in one season, he's shown himself to be incompetent at Premier League level, incompetent at Championship level and a total arsehole on top of that.

[Villan_of_oz]

3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

None of this is really true though.

Gueye was by far our best player in the season we went down, and was probably the only player to emerge from that season with any credit. Whilst he still didn't look great, it was obvious to a lot of people that he was a good player.

I don't think Clark looked like a different player. He just dropped down to the Championship. Just as Nathan Baker looks a much better player at this level, so did Clark. I fully expect Clark to be his limited self if he gets game time back in the prem with Newcastle.

Westwood has looked ok at burnley. I'd say he's looked the same there as he did in the Prem with us. An ok player, nothing more.

Albrighton is probably the best ammo for your argument as he's clearly been better in a much improved team. That's not really evidence that bacuna would do the same though. I'd be confident if Albrighton had still been here with us he'd have shone in the Championship a lot more than Bacuna has.

 

If Bacuna was as good as you think he is (and I cannot stress enough how wrong you are), then he would have shown similar signs. He'd have either been a player that emerged with some credit from our poor premier league seasons, like Gueye; he'd have shown that he's competent at a level more suited to him like Clark has; or he'd have shone at a level that is beneath him like Albrighton probably would have.

In reality, apart from a very short spell in one season, he's shown himself to be incompetent at Premier League level, incompetent at Championship level and a total arsehole on top of that.

1000 likes

[Hoof hearted]

15 hours ago, Tayls said:

Worth reading

I want to go on holiday to Curacao now. 

His brothers name is Juninho Bacuna?! Juninho in!

Edited July 11, 2017 by Hoof hearted

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, Michael118 said:

Gueye, Clark, Westwood, Albrighton you could argue were ''bang average at best' for us as well. It didn't take any of them long to look like different players once they moved on.

As others have said, I don't agree with any of these examples. Gueye, Clark and Albrighton were all players who I rated more highly than Bacuna, and all have gone on to better things elsewhere. I don't agree that Albrighton was only 'bang average', he was repeatedly the best player on the pitch in the second half of the season he left us, and it was purely Lambert's incompetence or inability to work out a position for him that meant he didn't play more. Gueye was a pretty good player, he just couldn't save a team on his own. Westwood I don't think has looked like a different player at all. 

As @Stevo985 has pointed out, bar your twelve game run Bacuna has failed at every level and appears to be massively disruptive. I could accept him as a low-quality utility player if he didn't seem to be so 'difficult' as an individual. 

44 minutes ago, Mjvilla said:

I personally rated albrightom and gueye and am not surprised to see them do well elsewhere. 

This the Clark who performed well IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP for Newcastle and now they have been promoted, they have just spent money a brand spanking new centre back, Florian Lejeune. Who do you think he will replace Clark or Lascelles? I'm pretty sure we both know the answer to that question. Benitez bought Clark as a cheap, decent CHAMPIONSHIP centre half to help them go up. I think Benitez has replaced Clark with someone he thinks is of a better standard because he knows Clark struggles in the prem league.

 I may be completely incorrect, but I thought I read something recently about Clark being Newcastle's player of the season last season? At any rate, he has been a significant success. I guess we'll see whether he can carry it on next season. 

[Mjvilla]

12 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

As others have said, I don't agree with any of these examples. Gueye, Clark and Albrighton were all players who I rated more highly than Bacuna, and all have gone on to better things elsewhere. I don't agree that Albrighton was only 'bang average', he was repeatedly the best player on the pitch in the second half of the season he left us, and it was purely Lambert's incompetence or inability to work out a position for him that meant he didn't play more. Gueye was a pretty good player, he just couldn't save a team on his own. Westwood I don't think has looked like a different player at all. 

As @Stevo985 has pointed out, bar your twelve game run Bacuna has failed at every level and appears to be massively disruptive. I could accept him as a low-quality utility player if he didn't seem to be so 'difficult' as an individual. 

 I may be completely incorrect, but I thought I read something recently about Clark being Newcastle's player of the season last season? At any rate, he has been a significant success. I guess we'll see whether he can carry it on next season. 

I think you are correct, but what I said still stands, In my opinion of course.

[tom_avfc]

This thread has echoes of the Barry Bannan thread for me in that due to one person's over the top praising of a player everybody else has gone overboard on him the other way.

He had a decent season last year and looked decent in the majority of the games he played. He gives us a bit more energy in the middle than anybody else we have and gives his all on the pitch (sometimes getting a little carried away e.g. linesmen and freekick incidents). I'd say he was unlucky not to get more game time with the performances that others put in.

I'd say he'd do a good job at a Championship team and potentially a lower end Premier League team as a squad player. I'd also suggest that things like the overblown Champions League comments have meant that he is now a face that doesn't fit and he'd do well to move on. I could see him excelling in new surroundings, again similar to Bannan. He's only 25 and I think he could still go on to achieve a decent career given the right support.

[Hoof hearted]

Nah, he's crap mate. 

[Keener window-cleaner]

Bacuna not even on the bench today? 

[Czechlad]

2 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

Bacuna not even on the bench today? 

Bacuna is playing for Curacao in the gold cup at the moment

[Keener window-cleaner]

Ok, I hope he likes it, buys a house nearby, opens a gym, tattoo studio or something like that and really enjoys his life over there.

[Czechlad]

I am watching him play for Curacao against El Salvador, and I have to say Bacuna is pissing me off so much and I have zero care who wins this. He is casually walking around the whole pitch. Even when an El Salvador player comes near him, Bacuna never even tries to get the ball. He is the furthest player back when Curacao are attacking, and he is the furthest player forward when Curacao are defending. How he is still on the pitch is beyond me. This is honestly one of the laziest and worst outings I have ever seen from a footballer. 

 

It honestly looks like he doesn't care whatsoever. Why even attend the tournament? I can't tell if he seriously lacks fitness or just doesn't give a f***.