The Randy Lerner thread

[markavfc40]

12 hours ago, blandy said:

Quote

Since Lerner bought Villa in July 2006, the club has accumulated losses before tax of £222 million – nearly a quarter of a billion pounds. In the five years between 2009 and 2013 alone the club lost £207 million, averaging £41 million a year. That’s an awful lot of money to finish 15th or 16th....

 

I struggle to get my head around just how badly this club has been run. You look at those losses and how can we have lost that amount of money and the result of such massive overspend be that we are sitting cut adrift at the foot of the table.

I look at us and I think if you just run us reasonably well you should have a club that is finishing in or around the top 8 every season. From there you may just get lucky and challenge for the top 4. To achieve that a club of our size should be able to spend within its means but the crux of it all is that you need to employ good people in the crucial positions and there is none more crucial than the manager.

Taking this back to where our troubles began there is no doubt now that under O’Neill we overspent. It seemed in the summer of 2010 that the club realised this, all be it a little late, and the tap was turned off and O’Neill left. No lessons were learned though as six months later we were splashing out over 20 mill on Darren Bent and giving him an 80k a week contract. Our wage bill in 2011 was the highest it had ever been apparently 12 months after the penny had dropped that we were spending too much. You learn from mistakes but despite what his name might suggest our owner is a very slow learner it seems.

What we needed under Lerner this last 5 years was to cop lucky and land an exceptional manager. Someone that could put a decent side together on relatively minimal spends. They are few and far between but they are out there. He never had that luck or never had the where with all to employ that person.

I think he has tried to get a structure in place this last 12 months but I think he may be employing the wrong people unfortunately and his decisions are still in the main reactive rather than proactive.

It is all such a massive waste though. I know I am blinkered but this is a great club with huge potential. Just a few days ago sitting cut adrift at the foot of the table we got a crowd of over 38k against a mid table side. When fishing 6^th we averaged over 40k. Everything is in place at this club to be a top eight top flight club season after season it just takes an owner with a little bit of nous which sadly ours so clearly lacks. It is all such a gut wrenching waste and it is us as supporters who are suffering the most.

[TRO]

10 hours ago, Nabby said:

Lerners ownership of Villa reminds me of an episode of Father Ted ,Ted has a car to raffle but notices a small dent so he trys to tap it out but makes the dent worse .on he goes continuing to tap out the dent convinced he will makes things right .He does this until all that is left is a destroyed car.

Everything Lerner does to fix the initial mistakes just makes it worse so I concur he is at the point where just cutting his loss's would benefit everyone.

I think he has recognised that himself.

which kinda makes it worse.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

I struggle to get my head around just how badly this club has been run. You look at those losses and how can we have lost that amount of money and the result of such massive overspend be that we are sitting cut adrift at the foot of the table.

 

I look at us and I think if you just run us reasonably well you should have a club that is finishing in or around the top 8 every season. From there you may just get lucky and challenge for the top 4. To achieve that a club of our size should be able to spend within its means but the crux of it all is that you need to employ good people in the crucial positions and there is none more crucial than the manager.

 

Taking this back to where our troubles began there is no doubt now that under O’Neill we overspent. It seemed in the summer of 2010 that the club realised this, all be it a little late, and the tap was turned off and O’Neill left. No lessons were learned though as six months later we were splashing out over 20 mill on Darren Bent and giving him an 80k a week contract. Our wage bill in 2011 was the highest it had ever been apparently 12 months after the penny had dropped that we were spending too much. You learn from mistakes but despite what his name might suggest our owner is a very slow learner it seems.

 

What we needed under Lerner this last 5 years was to cop lucky and land an exceptional manager. Someone that could put a decent side together on relatively minimal spends. They are few and far between but they are out there. He never had that luck or never had the where with all to employ that person.

 

I think he has tried to get a structure in place this last 12 months but I think he may be employing the wrong people unfortunately and his decisions are still in the main reactive rather than proactive.

 

It is all such a massive waste though. I know I am blinkered but this is a great club with huge potential. Just a few days ago sitting cut adrift at the foot of the table we got a crowd of over 38k against a mid table side. When fishing 6^th we averaged over 40k. Everything is in place at this club to be a top eight top flight club season after season it just takes an owner with a little bit of nous which sadly ours so clearly lacks. It is all such a gut wrenching waste and it is us as supporters who are suffering the most.

 

That in my humble opinion, is so frighteningly accurate.....one of the best posts I have seen on here to describe the value of the problem.

The only thing I would  mention Mark and it is a bit pedantic....Is that rather than we over spent, I think we bought players that never reached their value for the money spent( in the main). If the emphasis/slant was on the spending as opposed to the player value, we would have had less fully amortised players on our hands and got back more money.

We had to rely on selling our best players ( too few) to attempt to balance the books.....That's when the hole in the ship started.....since then we have sold better than we have bought, with Benteke the exception.

as you quite rightly say, nothing was learned from successive managers and it all went sour.

Despite, me having issues with the O'Neill era......It has undoubtedly got progressively worse.

We need a Graham Taylor Mk1.....I'm hoping Remi is that man.

 

Edited December 31, 2015 by TRO

[markavfc40]

27 minutes ago, TRO said:

We need a Graham Taylor Mk2.....I'm hoping Remi is that man.

 

I was convinced that man was Paul Lambert which perhaps shows how little I know   Every manager that walks through the door now I hope he can have a similar impact to what GT did back in 1987.  He inherited an absolute shambles and quickly turned things around. He had a lot of spine about him though and stood no interference not even from Ellis which was some going. He controlled the playing side of the club right from putting a structure in place for the youth development. I get the impression at Villa now there are too many layers. Too many with an influence on the playing side for that type of manager to be appointed again and have that level of control.

Edited December 31, 2015 by markavfc40

[TRO]

27 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I was convinced that man was Paul Lambert which perhaps shows how little I know   Every manager that walks through the door now I hope he can have a similar impact to what GT did back in 1987.  He inherited an absolute shambles and quickly turned things around. He had a lot of spine about him though and stood no interference not even from Ellis which was some going. He controlled the playing side of the club right from putting a structure in place for the youth development. I get the impression at Villa now there are too many layers. Too many with an influence on the playing side for that type of manager to be appointed again and have that level of control.

I think you are right.

like you, every manager that has come in, I have thought, deserves a chance and my support irrespective of,if deep down I have my doubts.

I think some managers have detractors from the start, with dubious reasons for doing so.....and a critical voice to boot.

There are so many factors to use when forming an opinion on, if a manager is going to be good or not.....my main criteria is his signings.....However that now seems a tad unfair when other bodies are involved.....another complication to factor in to our demise.

[villa4europe]

It has everything to do with how we're run

Explain his change in attitude without it, he flipped the switch because MON upset him? Because Milner chose city over us?

They changed the rules and he threw his toys out of the pram and pulled the plug

Did the owners of all the other clubs I mentioned "throw their toys out and pull the plug" ?

Half of those owners bought their club after the changes so no, all the others voted for it, Everton voted for it, Utd are arguably the biggest beneficiaries of it and Chelsea had enough about them to go get a £48m a season shirt sponsor so they don't have to care

I think out of those clubs that voted no Fulham have been sold, us And baggies are up for sale and city decided to sponsor half of Manchester as a way round it

And none of those clubs had spunked £200m up the wall in the years leading up to the changes and had a main shirt sponsor income of £0

[blandy]

35 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

.... Every manager that walks through the door now I hope he can have a similar impact to what GT did back in 1987.  He inherited an absolute shambles and quickly turned things around. He had a lot of spine about him though and stood no interference not even from Ellis which was some going. He controlled the playing side of the club right from putting a structure in place for the youth development. I get the impression at Villa now there are too many layers. Too many with an influence on the playing side for that type of manager to be appointed again and have that level of control.

I think that's right. I also think that finding someone with the abilities of GT (or more accurately, him finding us) was and is very much against the odds. The club got lucky, very lucky. I also think that the O'Neill experience rules out any chance of it happening under RL. So realistically the only chance is to have a manager and the layers above who are good at their jobs and who work well together.  At no point so far has that been the case.

[TRO]

correction on my earlier post......I should have said Graham Taylor MK1

[Richard]

I think there's about half a dozen to ten people on this forum who could better advise those running the club than the so called experts they have at the minute

[Hanky]

I think there's about half a dozen to ten people on this forum who could better advise those running the club than the so called experts they have at the minute

That few? I'm still waiting on the master plan to come to fruition though.

[TRO]

On 12/31/2015 at 11:57, Richard said:

I think there's about half a dozen to ten people on this forum who could better advise those running the club than the so called experts they have at the minute

I understand your point Richard, but realistically there are so many complicated issues that we are not privy to, that if we were put in their position, we too may be distracted away from prudent decisions......I think sometimes they can't see the "Woods for the Trees".

The real geniuses like David Dein ( Director) Alex Ferguson ( Manager) seem to have the ability amongst all the complication and complexity to make the decisions that are conducive with the Terraces.

I have said many times we the fans see a small window, we don't see all the day to day crap to distract us like they do.....I said this once to Graham Taylor and he chuckled and said " perhaps we should listen to you guys a bit more" I chuckled and said " you said it, not me"

Bearing in mind, I am only talking superficial stuff relating to the match day game.....There is so much appertaining to a football club, we wouldn't have a clue.

But I have said before "who knows more about trains.....The station master or the Trainspotter" ?

 

Edited January 1, 2016 by TRO

[Zatman]

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

I struggle to get my head around just how badly this club has been run. You look at those losses and how can we have lost that amount of money and the result of such massive overspend be that we are sitting cut adrift at the foot of the table.

 

I look at us and I think if you just run us reasonably well you should have a club that is finishing in or around the top 8 every season. From there you may just get lucky and challenge for the top 4. To achieve that a club of our size should be able to spend within its means but the crux of it all is that you need to employ good people in the crucial positions and there is none more crucial than the manager.

 

Taking this back to where our troubles began there is no doubt now that under O’Neill we overspent. It seemed in the summer of 2010 that the club realised this, all be it a little late, and the tap was turned off and O’Neill left. No lessons were learned though as six months later we were splashing out over 20 mill on Darren Bent and giving him an 80k a week contract. Our wage bill in 2011 was the highest it had ever been apparently 12 months after the penny had dropped that we were spending too much. You learn from mistakes but despite what his name might suggest our owner is a very slow learner it seems.

 

What we needed under Lerner this last 5 years was to cop lucky and land an exceptional manager. Someone that could put a decent side together on relatively minimal spends. They are few and far between but they are out there. He never had that luck or never had the where with all to employ that person.

 

I think he has tried to get a structure in place this last 12 months but I think he may be employing the wrong people unfortunately and his decisions are still in the main reactive rather than proactive.

 

It is all such a massive waste though. I know I am blinkered but this is a great club with huge potential. Just a few days ago sitting cut adrift at the foot of the table we got a crowd of over 38k against a mid table side. When fishing 6^th we averaged over 40k. Everything is in place at this club to be a top eight top flight club season after season it just takes an owner with a little bit of nous which sadly ours so clearly lacks. It is all such a gut wrenching waste and it is us as supporters who are suffering the most.

 

im surprised nobody has made a movie or wrote a book about how shoddy it is

Kevin James and Adam Sandler could play Lerner and Faulkner

[Nabby]

3 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

I struggle to get my head around just how badly this club has been run. You look at those losses and how can we have lost that amount of money and the result of such massive overspend be that we are sitting cut adrift at the foot of the table.

I look at us and I think if you just run us reasonably well you should have a club that is finishing in or around the top 8 every season. From there you may just get lucky and challenge for the top 4. To achieve that a club of our size should be able to spend within its means but the crux of it all is that you need to employ good people in the crucial positions and there is none more crucial than the manager.

Taking this back to where our troubles began there is no doubt now that under O’Neill we overspent. It seemed in the summer of 2010 that the club realised this, all be it a little late, and the tap was turned off and O’Neill left. No lessons were learned though as six months later we were splashing out over 20 mill on Darren Bent and giving him an 80k a week contract. Our wage bill in 2011 was the highest it had ever been apparently 12 months after the penny had dropped that we were spending too much. You learn from mistakes but despite what his name might suggest our owner is a very slow learner it seems.

What we needed under Lerner this last 5 years was to cop lucky and land an exceptional manager. Someone that could put a decent side together on relatively minimal spends. They are few and far between but they are out there. He never had that luck or never had the where with all to employ that person.

I think he has tried to get a structure in place this last 12 months but I think he may be employing the wrong people unfortunately and his decisions are still in the main reactive rather than proactive.

It is all such a massive waste though. I know I am blinkered but this is a great club with huge potential. Just a few days ago sitting cut adrift at the foot of the table we got a crowd of over 38k against a mid table side. When fishing 6^th we averaged over 40k. Everything is in place at this club to be a top eight top flight club season after season it just takes an owner with a little bit of nous which sadly ours so clearly lacks. It is all such a gut wrenching waste and it is us as supporters who are suffering the most.

I think getting Mark Hughes in as boss instead of Mcliesh that summer would have made a difference to where we are now ...

[Richard]

48 minutes ago, TRO said:

I understand your point Richard, but realistically there are so many complicated issues that we are not privy to, that if we were put in their position, we too may be distracted away from prudent decisions......I think sometimes they can't see the "Woods for the Trees".

The real geniuses like David Dein ( Director) Alex Ferguson ( Manager) seem to have the ability amongst all the complication and complexity to make the decisions that are conducive with the Terraces.

I have said many times we the fans see a small window, we don't see all the day to day crap to distract us like they do.....I said this once to Graham Taylor and he chuckled and said " perhaps we should listen to you guys a bit more" I chuckled and said " you said it, not me"

Baring in mind, I am only talking superficial stuff relating to the match day game.....There is so much appertaining to a football club, we wouldn't have a clue.

But I have said before "who knows more about trains.....The station master or the Trainspotter" ?

 

That's a bit patronising to be honest . I do realise all that

[foreveryoung]

Signing McLiesh said everything for me. It also told me Faulkner was a dumb ass who new f*** all about football an had zero respect for its fans. You can blame Lerner for employing him, but Faulkner personally had a huge impact on the demise of this great club.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

...realistically there are so many complicated issues that we are not privy to, that if we were put in their position, we too may be distracted away from prudent decisions......I think sometimes they can't see the "Woods for the Trees".

The real geniuses like David Dein ( Director) Alex Ferguson ( Manager) seem to have the ability amongst all the complication and complexity to make the decisions that are conducive with the Terraces.

I have said many times we the fans see a small window, we don't see all the day to day crap to distract us like they do.....I said this once to Graham Taylor and he chuckled and said " perhaps we should listen to you guys a bit more" I chuckled and said " you said it, not me"

Baring in mind, I am only talking superficial stuff relating to the match day game.....There is so much appertaining to a football club, we wouldn't have a clue.

But I have said before "who knows more about trains.....The station master or the Trainspotter" ?

I think there's a lot in that, but I don't really quite agree with it as a total package. You're dead right that sometimes people seeing just one aspect (fans), concentrating as we do on the results and players performances can often get a perspective that is free from the "complication and complexity" and that sometimes that kind of collective wisdom or vision is right. I also agree that as fans we wouldn't have a clue as individuals (in 99%+ of cases, certainly in mine).

Yet amongst the users of this site, there will be people with expertise in some of the areas needed to run or own a club, and there are people with the love of the club to (potentially in a hypothetical situation), contribute to the running of it. There are accountants, Doctors, business owners, player(s) etc. that are or were VT members.

I have to say I think your analogy is a good idea, but completely the wrong analogy - surely it's more comparable to say "who knows more about running a railway network.....The station master or the Trainspotter" - and that gives a completely different and clearer answer.  The trainspotter may know the names and numbers of the trains, and how fast they go, but they have no idea how to schedule, build, drive, maintain, repair them etc.

It's kind of human nature to think in some circumstances that we know much more than we do. It's like if you take a young person, give them their first job working as mechanic in a garage. After a couple of months ask them how much they know about cars and they'll claim they know loads. Ask the owner of the garage, who's worked there for 40 years, and they'll say they know a fair bit, but they'll also admit there's a heck of a lot they don't know. The more you know, the more you realise there's a lot you don't know.

Football fans are like that young mechanic, and the garage owner is like Graham Taylor. Wise enough to listen to the mechanic, but smart enough to know when to ignore what he says and how to do that in a way that still makes the mechanic feel good.

[srsmithusa]

14 hours ago, Richard said:

Yeah but I don't give a shit about him. He would not get the steam off my piss

TBF, I doubt there's a waiting line for it.

 

[blandy]

Your Majesty is like a stream of bat's piss. 

What? 

I... I merely meant, Your Majesty, that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark.

[decamoto]

While agreeing with almost all of  markavfc40's post, I disagree with the point that Lerner is trying to finally put in a structure in place over the last 12 months. 

I think Lerner is more on a rotating short term 'let's keep trying a different structure every other year and hope one works' approach rather than put in any sort of long term structure/philosophy in the same way that e.g. Southampton did a few years ago (and who are now reaping the rewards). 

Until the board/owner addresses this fundamental issue then we will keep regressing as a club. How far is anybody's guess. 

[dounavilla]

This thread is almost at 1000 pages so perhaps enough content for a book but I'm guessing it won't end with "happily ever after."