Leeds United

[Mjvilla]

4 minutes ago, Rino8 said:

As you said, no matter how hard or gently its a red card offence. Can you tell me with full confidence that if, instead of going down he flags it to the ref we see the same outcome?

 

It should be a red card no matter the players reaction but if you think VAR are going to send him off you must not have watched much football. Players have to reach this way or nothing happens.

I absolutely cannot do that. But the post I originally quoted, you said and I quote 'alioski isn't changing any outcome'. 

You're now changing the argument to he had to go down clutching his face, feigning injury to get the player sent off. Which is the argument for the retrospective punishment. Kind of backing up everybodies point really.

[Rino8]

14 minutes ago, Mjvilla said:

I absolutely cannot do that. But the post I originally quoted, you said and I quote 'alioski isn't changing any outcome'. 

You're now changing the argument to he had to go down clutching his face, feigning injury to get the player sent off. Which is the argument for the retrospective punishment. Kind of backing up everybodies point really.

I'm not.

So the preferred outcome for you is Alioski doesn't roll about and Pepe doesn't get sent off? Those are the two realistic options.

 

Alioski going down draws attention to what should be a red card. He's not changing the outcome he's ensuring the correct punishment is given 

[Mjvilla]

25 minutes ago, Rino8 said:

1 hour ago, Rino8 said:

@Mic09iAlioski isn't changing any outcome.

Can you tell me with full confidence that if, instead of going down he flags it to the ref we see the same outcome?

Yes, you are

 

[Mjvilla]

4 minutes ago, Rino8 said:

I'm not.

So the preferred outcome for you is Alioski doesn't roll about and Pepe doesn't get sent off? Those are the two realistic options.

 

Alioski going down draws attention to what should be a red card. He's not changing the outcome he's ensuring the correct punishment is given 

Keep up, I've even said in a post no more than an hour ago it was a sending off. 

I suppose though, 

Bamford continued: “It’s like when you try to murder someone and don’t kill them, you still get done.”

 

“Yeah, but you get done for attempted murder," explained Ayling.

[tom_avfc]

17 minutes ago, Rino8 said:

I'm not.

So the preferred outcome for you is Alioski doesn't roll about and Pepe doesn't get sent off? Those are the two realistic options.

 

Alioski going down draws attention to what should be a red card. He's not changing the outcome he's ensuring the correct punishment is given 

This is fine and I completely agree with it. However, the hypocrisy comes when fans can't accept that its the same for every other team in the league. All you see from Leeds fans is "Grealish dives" over and over again when in fact all he is doing is drawing the contact and then going down to win the free kick.

Its exactly the same situation. I have no real issue with what Alioski does in this situation other than the fact that he appears to be another in the long line of wind up merchants in the Leeds United squad.

Would I want to see one of our players constantly trying to provoke a reaction from opponents? Not really, but if they succeed in getting that reaction then hitting the deck is the best way to ensure that the red card is correctly awarded.

[Rino8]

3 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

This is fine and I completely agree with it. However, the hypocrisy comes when fans can't accept that its the same for every other team in the league. All you see from Leeds fans is "Grealish dives" over and over again when in fact all he is doing is drawing the contact and then going down to win the free kick.

Its exactly the same situation. I have no real issue with what Alioski does in this situation other than the fact that he appears to be another in the long line of wind up merchants in the Leeds United squad.

Would I want to see one of our players constantly trying to provoke a reaction from opponents? Not really, but if they succeed in getting that reaction then hitting the deck is the best way to ensure that the red card is correctly awarded.

Pretty much.

 

All this rolling about and playing for fouls is part of the game now. If you're not doing it you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

The idea that x player is a diver is outdated. They all are 

[bobzy]

18 minutes ago, Rino8 said:

Pretty much.

 

All this rolling about and playing for fouls is part of the game now. If you're not doing it you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

The idea that x player is a diver is outdated. They all are 

I disagree - there is absolutely a difference between diving and exaggerating contact to gain an advantage.

Solely using Leeds players, Bamford and Ayling have dived whereas Alioski has exaggerated contact.  The latter is 'fine', the former is cheating.

[PaulC]

1 hour ago, Rino8 said:

As you said, no matter how hard or gently its a red card offence. Can you tell me with full confidence that if, instead of going down he flags it to the ref we see the same outcome?

 

It should be a red card no matter the players reaction but if you think VAR are going to send him off you must not have watched much football. Players have to reach this way or nothing happens.

I don't agree there.  The game used to be more honest now its full of cheats. Mind you Leeds have a history for it under Revie. 

[DCJonah]

2 hours ago, bobzy said:

I disagree - there is absolutely a difference between diving and exaggerating contact to gain an advantage.

Solely using Leeds players, Bamford and Ayling have dived whereas Alioski has exaggerated contact.  The latter is 'fine', the former is cheating.

Absolutely this. 

[Keyblade]

I get making a meal of a genuine foul in order to get the incompetent ref's attention like Trezeguet did, but rolling around for 5 minutes trying to get a player sent off is just poor sportsmanship and it seems to be a recurring theme with Leeds.

I guess if they wore it as a badge of honour like they used to back in the day it wouldn't be as egregious, but the fact that they try to take the moral high ground and incessantly finger wag about Grealish and are still whining til this day about the Kodjia/Klich incident makes them so annoying.

[tom_avfc]

21 hours ago, Keyblade said:

I get making a meal of a genuine foul in order to get the incompetent ref's attention like Trezeguet did, but rolling around for 5 minutes trying to get a player sent off is just poor sportsmanship and it seems to be a recurring theme with Leeds.

I guess if they wore it as a badge of honour like they used to back in the day it wouldn't be as egregious, but the fact that they try to take the moral high ground and incessantly finger wag about Grealish and are still whining til this day about the Kodjia/Klich incident makes them so annoying.

But it was a blatantly obvious red card and as has been said if the player doesn't go down then it wouldn't get picked up. It's exactly the same as Trezeguet going down in an exaggerated fashion to win a deserved penalty. The attitude that its OK for one of ours to do it but its poor sportsmanship when somebody else's player does it is what annoys me. 

The actions of Alioski before the headbutt annoy me more. The constant winding up and provoking of an opponent to try and draw the reaction is something which we've fallen on the wrong side of before (Dublin against Savage and Benteke against someone for Spurs spring to mind) and is something which should be looked at more in my opinion. 

[villa4europe]

7 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

The attitude that its OK for one of ours to do it but its poor sportsmanship when somebody else's player does it is what annoys me. 

thats whats annoying most of us too but the shoe on the other foot

leeds fans have no place talking about jack grealish when they have their players doing what they do but based on social media they're everywhere spouting shit

[tom_avfc]

Just now, villa4europe said:

thats whats annoying most of us too but the shoe on the other foot

leeds fans have no place talking about jack grealish when they have their players doing what they do but based on social media they're everywhere spouting shit

I don't dispute that and have said the same in my previous comment on this thread:

On 23/11/2020 at 12:50, tom_avfc said:

This is fine and I completely agree with it. However, the hypocrisy comes when fans can't accept that its the same for every other team in the league. All you see from Leeds fans is "Grealish dives" over and over again when in fact all he is doing is drawing the contact and then going down to win the free kick.

Its exactly the same situation. I have no real issue with what Alioski does in this situation other than the fact that he appears to be another in the long line of wind up merchants in the Leeds United squad.

Would I want to see one of our players constantly trying to provoke a reaction from opponents? Not really, but if they succeed in getting that reaction then hitting the deck is the best way to ensure that the red card is correctly awarded.

You can't have it one way though and then do the same thing. Labelling their player as embarrassing for rolling around after a headbutt but accepting Trezeguet hitting the floor like he's been shot is exactly what you're calling out Leeds fans for doing.

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, tom_avfc said:

But it was a blatantly obvious red card and as has been said if the player doesn't go down then it wouldn't get picked up. It's exactly the same as Trezeguet going down in an exaggerated fashion to win a deserved penalty. The attitude that its OK for one of ours to do it but its poor sportsmanship when somebody else's player does it is what annoys me. 

The actions of Alioski before the headbutt annoy me more. The constant winding up and provoking of an opponent to try and draw the reaction is something which we've fallen on the wrong side of before (Dublin against Savage and Benteke against someone for Spurs spring to mind) and is something which should be looked at more in my opinion. 

To be honest, I don't think it's a blatantly obvious red card. Mings and El Ghazi didn't get sent off last season for more pronounced pushes. We see those head pushes all the time during coming togethers, and I usually see them end up in yellow cards if they're even caught in the first place. It wasn't a headbutt. The only time I've seen red cards is when the player acts like they've been shot and hit the ground. That's a manipulation of the officials, similar to the Bamford incident a couple of years ago.

 

[tom_avfc]

Just now, Keyblade said:

To be honest, I don't think it's a blatantly obvious red card. Mings and El Ghazi didn't get sent off last season for more pronounced pushes. We see those head pushes all the time during coming togethers, and I usually see them end up in yellow cards if they're even caught in the first place. It wasn't a headbutt. The only time I've seen red cards is when the player acts like they've been shot and hit the ground. That's a manipulation of the officials, similar to the Bamford incident a couple of years ago.

 

He's headbutted him. Literally nobody is trying to defend his actions and he's come out himself to apologise. I genuinely struggle to see how anybody could say that what he's done is not a red card offence.

Yes Alioski has hit the ground and if Pepe did that to one of our players I'd like to think they'd do the same thing for the reason that you've highlighted above. Alioski could have stayed on his feet and carried on but why would you when its a red card if you draw attention to it? As I said its exactly the same as Trezeguet's dramatic fall in the box. There's no way that the contact makes him do that but he's drawing attention to the foul to get the penalty.

[Keyblade]

1 minute ago, tom_avfc said:

He's headbutted him. Literally nobody is trying to defend his actions and he's come out himself to apologise. I genuinely struggle to see how anybody could say that what he's done is not a red card offence.

Yes Alioski has hit the ground and if Pepe did that to one of our players I'd like to think they'd do the same thing for the reason that you've highlighted above. Alioski could have stayed on his feet and carried on but why would you when its a red card if you draw attention to it? As I said its exactly the same as Trezeguet's dramatic fall in the box. There's no way that the contact makes him do that but he's drawing attention to the foul to get the penalty.

I don't know, I was watching the game live and thought it was soft. Like I said, I see that all the time whenever players come together in anger. It's usually a non-issue unless a player goes down, and that really the only reason we're even talking about it and Pepe has had to apologize.

I'm not privy to the rules to be honest, so it could have still been a red card offence (in which case you're absolutely right), I'm just going by how I've seen this situation be officiated. Granted, we know the refs aren't exactly reliable when it comes to enforcing the rules.

If it's not though, I think the key difference here is that Trezeguet still goes down from the challenge and it's still a penalty. He's dramatizing it for effect, just to "nail" it so to speak. He's not fabricating a penalty that shouldn't be there though. 

[MrSmirch]

Football is a game of deceit, do whatever you can to win (or get a point).

[villa4europe]

bielsa on the 5 man shortlist for fifa world coach of the year alongside klopp, zidane, lopetegui and flick

i think thats a reflection that some of the biggest clubs in europe are going through the motions in their leagues with some relatively average managers, tuchel and sarri for example

but no nomination for the atalanta coach is a bit shit

[tom_avfc]

4 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

bielsa on the 5 man shortlist for fifa world coach of the year alongside klopp, zidane, lopetegui and flick

i think thats a reflection that some of the biggest clubs in europe are going through the motions in their leagues with some relatively average managers, tuchel and sarri for example

but no nomination for the atalanta coach is a bit shit

I don't really understand the nomination of Bielsa. He's got one of the better backed teams in the Championship into the Premier League. I'd be interested to know how far down the list Slaven Bilic is who has achieved the same feat.

How often is a Championship winning manager nominated for this award. Given that the points total achieved by Bielsa of 93 is the lowest title winning points total since Burnley also got 93 in 2015/16 it just seems a really strange nomination. Was Nuno even on the shortlist for his 99 point season? 

[Zatman]

53 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

bielsa on the 5 man shortlist for fifa world coach of the year alongside klopp, zidane, lopetegui and flick

i think thats a reflection that some of the biggest clubs in europe are going through the motions in their leagues with some relatively average managers, tuchel and sarri for example

but no nomination for the atalanta coach is a bit shit

Gasperini, Simone Inzaghi had great seasons, Chris Wilder worth a nomination or the Union Berlin manager or even Pioli