The, he's finally GONE! Tell us your thoughts Thread

[Woodytom]

No the blame doesn't clearly lie with the players. As I previously stated as an example, look at Sunderland under O'Neill compared to Sunderland under Bruce. This is nothing to do with comparing O'Neill and McLeish, just compare Sunderland under O'Neill to under Bruce with exactly the same players.

The players haven't changed, there the exact same players and they haven't become better players. They are simply playing for a different manager, they are motivated and they are playing to their strengths or he is picking players that who's strengths match the system he wants to play.

In short Sunderland are an example of the impact of the manager on a group of players. I firmly believe while we have some issues with some players the main problem is the manager not the players

While I agree with this point Trent, I do find myself wondering at what point, these overpaid tosspots thought they could have the audacity to pick and choose which manager they prefer to motivate themselves for.

Hang on a minute, yeah, fans keep blaming the manager so I suppose they do have the audacity

[Robbie09]

BUT…..more of blame in not all clearly has to lie with the players…they are simply not good enough…..McLeish has his faults but when the players cross the white line the players have to tale responsibility…the football if you call it that is shocking…no movement…hoof…McLeish is standing shouting at them and often can be seen looking at them going WTF….keep the ball. The team cant even do basic things right so what chance have we got

You must have read my previous post as this was in response to it but I'm seriously struggling to understand how you could post this in response to what I'd posted.

No the blame doesn't clearly lie with the players. As I previously stated as an example, look at Sunderland under O'Neill compared to Sunderland under Bruce. This is nothing to do with comparing O'Neill and McLeish, just compare Sunderland under O'Neill to under Bruce with exactly the same players.

The players haven't changed, there the exact same players and they haven't become better players. They are simply playing for a different manager, they are motivated and they are playing to their strengths or he is picking players that who's strengths match the system he wants to play.

In short Sunderland are an example of the impact of the manager on a group of players. I firmly believe while we have some issues with some players the main problem is the manager not the players.

Yes poor subs…Heskey on the left…but when we cant make a simple 5 yard pass what’s he to do.

How about not pick him in the first place, especially not in midfield.

If Barry et al were still here with Mcleish as the manager do you think we would be where we are now……if yes then its Mcleish but if no then it’s the team….

I don't think we would be that much better off put it that way.

We are no better than Birmingham were last season and I'm damn sure he has a better set of players to work with than he did there last season. So I'd argue that despite better resources the end result is the same so the problem quite clearly is the manager.

Totally agree with TrentVilla. The current squad at his disposal is in my opinion a top 10 squad, and far better than the dross he had last season at SHA. Sadly he's managing to turn us into relegation candidates with his tactics.

Admittedly there are players (especially in defence) that are making costly errors but the attacking talent available to him should be better utilised to compensate for this.

After all the best form of defence is attack.

[KHV]

McLeish's EPIC FAIL season to date stats. Some of these are alarming to put it mildly.

Not one Villa fan can have any credible form of defence for this muppet.

Matches played 25

Wins 6 24%

Draws 10 40%

Losses 9 36%

Goals for 29

Goals against 34

Points 28

Clean sheets 5 20%

Games conceded 20 80%

Games scored 16 64%

Failed to score 9 36%

Avg. goals scored p/m 1.16

Avg. goals conceded p/m 1.36

Biggest victory 3 - 1

Biggest defeat 1 - 4

[Bazmonkey]

BUT…..more of blame in not all clearly has to lie with the players…they are simply not good enough…..McLeish has his faults but when the players cross the white line the players have to tale responsibility…the football if you call it that is shocking…no movement…hoof…McLeish is standing shouting at them and often can be seen looking at them going WTF….keep the ball. The team cant even do basic things right so what chance have we got

You must have read my previous post as this was in response to it but I'm seriously struggling to understand how you could post this in response to what I'd posted.

No the blame doesn't clearly lie with the players. As I previously stated as an example, look at Sunderland under O'Neill compared to Sunderland under Bruce. This is nothing to do with comparing O'Neill and McLeish, just compare Sunderland under O'Neill to under Bruce with exactly the same players.

The players haven't changed, there the exact same players and they haven't become better players. They are simply playing for a different manager, they are motivated and they are playing to their strengths or he is picking players that who's strengths match the system he wants to play.

In short Sunderland are an example of the impact of the manager on a group of players. I firmly believe while we have some issues with some players the main problem is the manager not the players.

Yes poor subs…Heskey on the left…but when we cant make a simple 5 yard pass what’s he to do.

How about not pick him in the first place, especially not in midfield.

If Barry et al were still here with Mcleish as the manager do you think we would be where we are now……if yes then its Mcleish but if no then it’s the team….

I don't think we would be that much better off put it that way.

We are no better than Birmingham were last season and I'm damn sure he has a better set of players to work with than he did there last season. So I'd argue that despite better resources the end result is the same so the problem quite clearly is the manager.

Trent - I do see what you mean and in parts you are right....perhaps you dont see what Im saying....you say look at MON with Sunderland now to Bruce...yes great but thats the same team of players.

Mcleish hasnt got the same players MON had thats what Im getting at, if he did then by al means we can compare but we cant.

For arguements sake.....if it looks like a duck...walks like a duck...sounds like duck...then stands to chance of being a duck.....therefore if it looks like a poor team...with poor players...plays like like a poor team...then maybe we have a poor team...regardless of who is incharge.

I'm not blaiming just the players, the manager does have to look at himself more like Heskey in midfield, but to be fair Nzog, Albrighton, Bannan to name but a few have also played but havent really set the pitch on fire...different arguement for a different day..... but also some people are so anti Mcleish, which they have the right to, they maybe dont see the bigger picture which includes the playing staff

[TrentVilla]

Trent - I do see what you mean and in parts you are right....perhaps you dont see what Im saying....you say look at MON with Sunderland now to Bruce...yes great but thats the same team of players.

Mcleish hasnt got the same players MON had thats what Im getting at, if he did then by al means we can compare but we cant.

The point about Sunderland is that O'Neill has exactly the same players to work with that Bruce had and the difference between their respective results/performance illustrates the importance of the manager.

It illustrates that it isn't just about the players on the pitch is probably the clearest example of the difference two managers performance with the same group of players.

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination saying McLeish has the same players to work with that Houllier or O'Neill had. I'm simply trying to dismiss the notion that our problems are simply that our players aren't good enough.

I'm sure Sunderland fans under Bruce thought their players weren't good enough and now look at them.

The managers influence on his players, the way he uses them, the confidence or otherwise he instill's in them really shouldn't be under estimated but I feel it is by some in defence of McLeish.

You will never find me saying our players are without blame, you will never find me defending some of them. However for all their weakness and faults I firmly believe as a collective group they are better and are capable of better than McLeish has been or will ever be able to get from them.

That is why I don't think he is good enough, that is why I will argue with anyone who says the problem is the players or mainly the players because I simply don't think it holds true.

I don't think any manager would take us to 6th with our current squad but I think there are plenty of managers who would be doing better than Mcleish this season in his shoes.

Perhaps some are obsessed with being critical of McLeish while ignoring our other issues perhaps they aren't I don't know. Regardless of if they are or not that shouldn't detract attention away from the fact he is doing a really really bad job.

[villianusa]

@Trent

I agree with you some managers have ability to motivate and MON is certainly one of those. But, I have to ask don't you feel that players have for many years now been the reason a lot of managers get sacked.

Players for what ever reasons: don't like manager, no competiton in squad, no effort, not good enough, seeing out contract, etc... are the reasons teams perform so badly hence get the manager the boot.

I think Villa the moment is suffering from quite a few of the above.

Heskey, Collins, Warnock, Hutton, : not good enough

Dunne, Petrov: No competiton is squad

N.Zog, Ireland: No effort (most of the time)

Gardner, Bannan, Albrighton, Herd, most of youngsters: No quite ready

I'm sure I could add more to that list but what I'm trying to show is AM has been landed with a bum deal. Looking at that list above doesn't leave much with many players who are performing.

Gabby, Bent, Keane, Cuellar; I would add Petrov to that as he is doing well but we need better in center of park. The squad needs an overall going into next season; maybe the youngster could be the solution but even though I'm not happy with A right now I would like to see him given a chance to change it. If still sucking by November then away he goes.

[thetrees]

.

No the blame doesn't clearly lie with the players. As I previously stated as an example, look at Sunderland under O'Neill compared to Sunderland under Bruce. This is nothing to do with comparing O'Neill and McLeish, just compare Sunderland under O'Neill to under Bruce with exactly the same players.

The players haven't changed, there the exact same players and they haven't become better players. They are simply playing for a different manager, they are motivated and they are playing to their strengths or he is picking players that who's strengths match the system he wants to play.

In short Sunderland are an example of the impact of the manager on a group of players. I firmly believe while we have some issues with some players the main problem is the manager not the players.

There is no compaison with the player situations that both men inherited.

McLeish inherited some long in the tooth professionals, a long way into big contracts, most of which won't be renewed, and some of whom had practiced 'player power' during the previous manager's short tenure.

O'Neill inherited a squad nine of whom had only been at the club a few short months, early in their contracts, and quite eager to make an impression at the club that they had tied themself to for the foreseeable future.

One manager inherited a nightmare, the other a dream, which is why he took the job.

[TrentVilla]

One manager inherited a nightmare, the other a dream, which is why he took the job.

O'Neill inherited a dream at Sunderland? I'm not even going to bother debating from that starting point.

[windyhead]

I am generally anti most premiership managerial sackings as generally they happen too quickly and they are generally dictated a lot more by media pressure than performance BUT I feel that AM was sworn in because there were very few high(ish) profiles names going around when MON left and the season was just about to start.

going back to trent and villausa - yes motivation is only part of management but its a massive (part especially at teams like Villa...). you do get people who's reading of the game is very good (Wenger has to be included here) but even Ferguson's tactical reading isnt that great - to me he is a testament of what can be achieved by motivation. Basically he's a terrifying $£@%$£@. I just cant see AM having that effect on a changing room of players who MIGHT be thinking Villa are midtable fodder so why play 101%...

[Mantis]

McLeish didn't exactly walk into an ideal situation or inherit a great squad but that's no excuse for the position we find ourselves in and the negative football.

[dn1982]

.

No the blame doesn't clearly lie with the players. As I previously stated as an example, look at Sunderland under O'Neill compared to Sunderland under Bruce. This is nothing to do with comparing O'Neill and McLeish, just compare Sunderland under O'Neill to under Bruce with exactly the same players.

The players haven't changed, there the exact same players and they haven't become better players. They are simply playing for a different manager, they are motivated and they are playing to their strengths or he is picking players that who's strengths match the system he wants to play.

In short Sunderland are an example of the impact of the manager on a group of players. I firmly believe while we have some issues with some players the main problem is the manager not the players.

There is no compaison with the player situations that both men inherited.

McLeish inherited some long in the tooth professionals, a long way into big contracts, most of which won't be renewed, and some of whom had practiced 'player power' during the previous manager's short tenure.

O'Neill inherited a squad nine of whom had only been at the club a few short months, early in their contracts, and quite eager to make an impression at the club that they had tied themself to for the foreseeable future.

One manager inherited a nightmare, the other a dream, which is why he took the job.

And the reason we have some long in the tooth professionals a long way into big contracts is MON. I'm no fan of Mcleish but one thing he has is the balls to go into a crap situation and try to do a good job. I don't believe he is good enough as our performances have shown but MON walked away when confronted with the situation we are now in. He has gone somewhere where the times right for him and he can keep his reputation intact. Sunderland are Villa circa 2006 so i guess in 2016 he will be off. UTV

[blandy]

BUT…..more of blame in not all clearly has to lie with the players...

No the blame doesn't clearly lie with the players. As I previously stated as an example, look at Sunderland under O'Neill compared to Sunderland under Bruce. This is nothing to do with comparing O'Neill and McLeish, just compare Sunderland under O'Neill to under Bruce with exactly the same players.

The players haven't changed, there the exact same players and they haven't become better players.

While I accept your point, I think it's simplistic to say no blame lies with the players, or that because MO'N can make a team of players perform better, that players aren't at fault, at all.

A simple analogy would be a broken car. One mechanic may be able to fix it, and another unable to fix it, but it's undeniable that the car was broken (at fault) as well as one mechanic being at fault for not fixing it and one is more gifted for being able to fix it.

In other words, MO'N is a better manager, yes. But our players have to carry some of the blame for their performances. When Warnock (or whoever) plays badly, and there's no other left back available, and no money to go get one, that ain't McLeish's fault.

When McLeish plays Heskey in midfield, that's McLeish's fault. When he sets out to defend a 0-0 v Spurs or Man City for 90 minutes, that's his fault.

[thetrees]

One manager inherited a nightmare, the other a dream, which is why he took the job.

O'Neill inherited a dream at Sunderland? I'm not even going to bother debating from that starting point.

Of course not. That would be 'other football' and this is the 'Villatalk' thread :winkold:

[thetrees]

And the reason we have some long in the tooth professionals a long way into big contracts is MON. I'm no fan of Mcleish but one thing he has is the balls to go into a crap situation and try to do a good job. I don't believe he is good enough as our performances have shown but MON walked away when confronted with the situation we are now in. He has gone somewhere where the times right for him and he can keep his reputation intact. Sunderland are Villa circa 2006 so i guess in 2016 he will be off. UTV

But then McLeish should maybe have assessed what he was potentially walking into and stayed the hell out.

O'Neill assessed Sunderland's potential and knew that he was on an all win situation.

So, of two very similar managers, O'Neill is clearly better at mapping his own future.

[TrentVilla]

While I accept your point, I think it's simplistic to say no blame lies with the players, or that because MO'N can make a team of players perform better, that players aren't at fault, at all.

Indeed it is which is why I've not said no blame lies with the players. You probably more than most know my thoughts on Dunne for example. I said no the blame doesn't 'clearly lie with the players' in response to a post by someone else suggesting our problems are down to them and not the manager, in my post previous to that I'm fairly sure I mentioned that the players are also to blame.

Clearly players are responsible for their own individual form, however wider than that the manager is responsible. He is responsible for collective form, confidence call it what you will.

I was simply trying to illustrate that saying our position is the fault of the players is in my opinion incorrect.

Nobody has excelled in our colours this season, not even close and the collective and overall responsibility for that in my opinion is down to the manager.

Despite the faults of individual players that isn't in my opinion the route of our problem more a symptom. I think a change of manager (the right sort of change obviously) would fix a lot of them.

I don't absolve the players of blame but McLeish in my view is the biggest problem and the easiest to fix.

In other words, MO'N is a better manager, yes. But our players have to carry some of the blame for their performances. When Warnock (or whoever) plays badly, and there's no other left back available, and no money to go get one, that ain't McLeish's fault.

Actually, yes it is or at least in part. He knew (I presume) the financial restrictions he was working under yet when Young departed he opted to buy Hutton.

Now this isn't hindsight because I said it at the time, he should have signed a LB because we had plenty of options at RB. So in my opinion he made a mistake there and he opted to go into a season with no cover for a player who had spent the previous season out of form and out of favour.

That was a mistake by McLeish and one that could and should have been avoided.

[Tayls]

McLeish and the team have 4 games to show us what their intentions are for this season. 4 games, in which to decide what league we will be playing in next season. Whether we are actually shit, or just mislead will show from these fixtures. It really is time just wait and see now as this thread is just going round and round in nearly 500 circles.

I cannot wait until we next play. Hate having gaps!

[markavfc40]

But then McLeish should maybe have assessed what he was potentially walking into and stayed the hell out.

**** hell imagine that had been the case. Alex McLeish turning us down :shock:

There is no doubt that had McLeish been doing a decent job we would be sitting comfortably in the top 10. Had he have been doing a very good job we would be sitting top 8.

The fact, that with the squad of players he has at his disposal, we are sitting three places above the relegation zone, have won 6 games all season and haven't won at home for 4 months, is a disgrace.

[CI]

Well we play Wigan, then is there another gap in proceedings for some joke international friendlies

[Mantis]

Well we play Wigan, then is there another gap in proceedings for some joke international friendlies

No there isn't. :?

[Tayls]

Theres no gap after we play wigan? We play blackburn the following Saturday...