The, he's finally GONE! Tell us your thoughts Thread

[TrentVilla]

At the end of the day McLeish is simply doing a poor job, regardless of where he came from, what type of football he likes or deploys his teams to play.

He should be doing better than he is with the resources he has available even if those resources are less than those who went before him.

Regardless or not if there have been some decent performances or not his performance in my opinion has fallen well short of what I deem acceptable. His performance as manager has seen us equal our worst home form since 1987 and is likely to see us dragged into a relegation fight.

People defend him by saying he isn't entirely responsible, that it is down to the players as well and yes granted it is. But then look at the difference in the players at Sunderland under O'Neill compared to under Bruce as an illustration of the importance of the manager.

I'm not comparing O'Neill to McLeish here, I'm pointing out the difference two managers can have on exactly the same group of players.

So while the players have to shoulder some of the blame for our woeful form and a number of terrible performances the buck ultimately stops with the man in charge. The man picking the team, conducting training or repsonsilble for those that do and with the man making all the decisions in relation to the team.

I don't care that he is ex Blues, I don't much care about his style of football (although I admit I don't much like it) I care about results. About winning games and performance in the league.

On these things alone Mcleish should be judged and at this stage with the run in to the end of the season fast approaching I think he can be judged an abject failure.

That is why I would be happy to see him removed from the job today, tomorrow or at any point in the near future because I think he is failing and I don't see that changing.

The only thing that makes me think differently is the total fear I have of the thought of Faulker and Lerner having another stab at appointing a manager because I hate to think just how wrong they are capable of getting things based on their last two attempts.

[Bazmonkey]

BUT…..more of blame in not all clearly has to lie with the players…they are simply not good enough…..McLeish has his faults but when the players cross the white line the players have to tale responsibility…the football if you call it that is shocking…no movement…hoof…McLeish is standing shouting at them and often can be seen looking at them going WTF….keep the ball. The team cant even do basic things right so what chance have we got

Yes poor subs…Heskey on the left…but when we cant make a simple 5 yard pass what’s he to do.

The problem lies with the MON purchases. When MON first took over the team was established with good premiership player and internationals….Barry…Melberg…Laursen…then he got in Carew….a good player in the making in Young….a good team that scored 70 goals in that one year.

However, and here is the problem, most bar a handful were purchased from poor lower table teams. NRC….Collins, West Ham, Warnock, Blackburn, Sidwell, not played for two years etc….these players a simply not good enough….add to the fact that all of the good players he inherited leaving over the years…what are you left with…..what we have now.

You buy poor players then over time you’re going to end up with a poor side and that’s what we have….although poor is probably unfair but a mid table team at the best.

If Barry et al were still here with Mcleish as the manager do you think we would be where we are now……if yes then its Mcleish but if no then it’s the team….

[CI]

^ agree with that, they'd no doubt short list an incredibly poor set of candidates and then pick the worst of the bunch.

Personally, I think we have to give McLeish the next 4 games and set a target of 8 points minimum from these games because after this it's hard to see us picking up much more.

[Richard]

BUT…..more of blame in not all clearly has to lie with the players…they are simply not good enough…..McLeish has his faults but when the players cross the white line the players have to tale responsibility…the football if you call it that is shocking…no movement…hoof…McLeish is standing shouting at them and often can be seen looking at them going WTF….keep the ball. The team cant even do basic things right so what chance have we got

Yes poor subs…Heskey on the left…but when we cant make a simple 5 yard pass what’s he to do.

The problem lies with the MON purchases. When MON first took over the team was established with good premiership player and internationals….Barry…Melberg…Laursen…then he got in Carew….a good player in the making in Young….a good team that scored 70 goals in that one year.

However, and here is the problem, most bar a handful were purchased from poor lower table teams. NRC….Collins, West Ham, Warnock, Blackburn, Sidwell, not played for two years etc….these players a simply not good enough….add to the fact that all of the good players he inherited leaving over the years…what are you left with…..what we have now.

You buy poor players then over time you’re going to end up with a poor side and that’s what we have….although poor is probably unfair but a mid table team at the best.

If Barry et al were still here with Mcleish as the manager do you think we would be where we are now……if yes then its Mcleish but if no then it’s the team….

This reminds me of the crap comedian who's act was totally shite saying "it was the last guy, he was so bad they were still booing him half way through my act"

Basically if it was the players that MON bought being totally crap, how come we improved year on year when he was here? How come he managed to get the best ever points total out of us and never once flirted with the bottom end of the table when he had his players here?

Sorry but that sort of says it is the manager , not the players. They could do the basics when MON was here, but now cannot. I mean it if is all down the players then lets have no manager at all.

I doubt , by the way, whether the better players would be here under Mcleish, and that is very much down to manager and owner

[AVFCforever1991]

I don't care that he is an ex blues manager.. I wouldn't care if he used to manage west brom,Wolves and every other club in the midlands.. I just care what type of football he plays.. And its there for all to see, he hasn't got a bloody clue what he is doing.. His tactics are just terrible.. never goes for it, expect for the last 10 mins of every game!

Simple fact is he needs to go.

[NorthEastVillan]

^ agree with that, they'd no doubt short list an incredibly poor set of candidates and then pick the worst of the bunch.

Personally, I think we have to give McLeish the next 4 games and set a target of 8 points minimum from these games because after this it's hard to see us picking up much more.

Completely disagree. I think we have a squad which can easily finish top ten if properly managed/motivated which McLeish seems incapable of doing.

I would like to see him removed before it's too late. Sadly I don't believe we have anyone at the club with the balls to sack him. We would take too much of a financial hit if we got rid, and that's the way the club operate at the minute ££££££££.

[barry'sboots]

^ agree with that, they'd no doubt short list an incredibly poor set of candidates and then pick the worst of the bunch.

Personally, I think we have to give McLeish the next 4 games and set a target of 8 points minimum from these games because after this it's hard to see us picking up much more.

So, if we keep McTool and don't get 8 points, we are screwed whereas if we had taken decisive action after the Citeh game, got rid and made an appointment we actually give someone the chance to turn things around?

[CI]

If he were to go now, it would need a big name to come in, someone like Capello

It would be pointless appointing another mediocre manager such as Curbishley Shteve or Sven.

[barry'sboots]

At the end of the day McLeish is simply doing a poor job, regardless of where he came from, what type of football he likes or deploys his teams to play.

He should be doing better than he is with the resources he has available even if those resources are less than those who went before him.

Regardless or not if there have been some decent performances or not his performance in my opinion has fallen well short of what I deem acceptable. His performance as manager has seen us equal our worst home form since 1987 and is likely to see us dragged into a relegation fight.

People defend him by saying he isn't entirely responsible, that it is down to the players as well and yes granted it is. But then look at the difference in the players at Sunderland under O'Neill compared to under Bruce as an illustration of the importance of the manager.

I'm not comparing O'Neill to McLeish here, I'm pointing out the difference two managers can have on exactly the same group of players.

So while the players have to shoulder some of the blame for our woeful form and a number of terrible performances the buck ultimately stops with the man in charge. The man picking the team, conducting training or repsonsilble for those that do and with the man making all the decisions in relation to the team.

I don't care that he is ex Blues, I don't much care about his style of football (although I admit I don't much like it) I care about results. About winning games and performance in the league.

On these things alone Mcleish should be judged and at this stage with the run in to the end of the season fast approaching I think he can be judged an abject failure.

That is why I would be happy to see him removed from the job today, tomorrow or at any point in the near future because I think he is failing and I don't see that changing.

The only thing that makes me think differently is the total fear I have of the thought of Faulker and Lerner having another stab at appointing a manager because I hate to think just how wrong they are capable of getting things based on their last two attempts.

Completely agree Trent. It is idiotic to complain that all of the negativity around Eck stems from his association with Blues (I accept that there will be a small element).

It is because he is a poor manager. He proved that during his three years at Blues - which is why I was personally so anti- his appointment from Day 1 - and he continues to prove that during his time at VP.

Whilst I agree with your final sentiment I am struggling to think of a replacement candidate that I would want less than McLeish??

[Bazmonkey]

BUT…..more of blame in not all clearly has to lie with the players…they are simply not good enough…..McLeish has his faults but when the players cross the white line the players have to tale responsibility…the football if you call it that is shocking…no movement…hoof…McLeish is standing shouting at them and often can be seen looking at them going WTF….keep the ball. The team cant even do basic things right so what chance have we got

Yes poor subs…Heskey on the left…but when we cant make a simple 5 yard pass what’s he to do.

The problem lies with the MON purchases. When MON first took over the team was established with good premiership player and internationals….Barry…Melberg…Laursen…then he got in Carew….a good player in the making in Young….a good team that scored 70 goals in that one year.

However, and here is the problem, most bar a handful were purchased from poor lower table teams. NRC….Collins, West Ham, Warnock, Blackburn, Sidwell, not played for two years etc….these players a simply not good enough….add to the fact that all of the good players he inherited leaving over the years…what are you left with…..what we have now.

You buy poor players then over time you’re going to end up with a poor side and that’s what we have….although poor is probably unfair but a mid table team at the best.

If Barry et al were still here with Mcleish as the manager do you think we would be where we are now……if yes then its Mcleish but if no then it’s the team….

This reminds me of the crap comedian who's act was totally shite saying "it was the last guy, he was so bad they were still booing him half way through my act"

Basically if it was the players that MON bought being totally crap, how come we improved year on year when he was here? How come he managed to get the best ever points total out of us and never once flirted with the bottom end of the table when he had his players here?

Sorry but that sort of says it is the manager , not the players. They could do the basics when MON was here, but now cannot. I mean it if is all down the players then lets have no manager at all.

I doubt , by the way, whether the better players would be here under Mcleish, and that is very much down to manager and owner

How do you know that they still wouldny be here...if they were still playing well with good team mates why would want to leave purely because the manager is Mcleish.....nope....the good players left because before the good players exited and saw what was left...i.e poor

MON best points etc was beacuse the good players were still here....Melberg was still first to go to Italy..... then laursen year later..then Barry....Milner...Young....etc now none of them are left.....yes we finsish 6th that arguement again but each year the football started to go down hill....yes we got the results which to be fair its a results game but towards MON stint we ere often on the back foot for a majority of the game...at some point it was all going to change now add the better players starting to leave....as they left those poor players had to come in.

Yes Mcleish is a poor manager and has made some poor errors but I still think the majority of the blame is with the players....opinion

[Intercourse_The_Penguin]

How delusionally hopeful is it to hold out some small hope that AMc has actually been sent to the States to speak to this man?

[keefa3011]

West Ham weren't pro-active in sacking Grant, and they went down. Completely subjective, I know, but had they got Big Sam in last January they would have stayed up, imo.

We're in a similar pickle with McLeish, except I'm not sure we'd be able to cope with relegation as well as the Hammers have.

[NorthEastVillan]

MON best points etc was beacuse the good players were still here....Melberg was still first to go to Italy..... then laursen year later..then Barry....Milner...Young....etc now none of them are left.....yes we finsish 6th that arguement again but each year the football started to go down hill....yes we got the results which to be fair its a results game but towards MON stint we ere often on the back foot for a majority of the game...at some point it was all going to change now add the better players starting to leave....as they left those poor players had to come in.

Yes Mcleish is a poor manager and has made some poor errors but I still think the majority of the blame is with the players....opinion

McLeish has Bent, N'zogbia, Given, Dunne (When on form), Gabby, Ireland et al.

Yes Laursen, Mellberg, Milner and Young are massive players to replace but I personally think it's not the quality of the player we have that is the problem. It's solely down to man motivation.

[Mantis]

If he were to go now, it would need a big name to come in, someone like Capello

It would be pointless appointing another mediocre manager such as Curbishley Shteve or Sven.

But McLeish isn't mediocre, he's dreadful.

[macandally]

So, to sum up. McLeish gets to go on a boys jolly to America to look at a "model" at Cleveland Browns which has seen them consistently finish bottom of their division. The reason he's there is because he failed to motivate his team well enough, or to change the shape of the side, to sucessfully hold a 2-0 half time lead against a badly mis-firing Arsenal side. Villa have won, what is it? 6 from their 25 games this season went out of both cups early and currently lie 15th in a piss poor Premier Division where Swansea City, Norwich City are above us. What a fanfuckingtastic decision it was to appoint him. And yet, THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE ON THIS SITE WILLING TO STICK UP FOR MCLEISH. Get real people.

People only hate him because of where he came from...

Its not the only reason, but it is a still a massive factor and always will be.

Those who pretend it's not really a major if not THE major factor, should re-read the posts on this site from the first week he was appointed. He wasn't hated then "because of how badly he has set us up to play" as some pretend is their whole complaint.

oh get a grip will you! If you are happy with what is happening under his management then your expectations are rock bottom.

Me get a grip? I made the valid point that plenty were livid that we hired somebody from blues at the time the hiring was made. It's clear if you look back at the posts at the time. It proves that for many, where he came from is A major if not THE major problem. Many hated him long before he "ruined our style of play" or "set us up to lose.' You ignored my post, told me to "get a grip" and attack me for your assertion that I have no expectations. A straw man argument is when you put words in the other persons mouth and then attack him for "saying" them.

The same nonsense is aggravating when posters put words in the managers mouth and then attack him for "saying" those words. (It happens in american politics all the time.) It's still a logical fallacy.

I am not pleased with MANY of the decisions McLeish has made. But I think it's absurd to assert that he wants to lose matches. Wants to draw. Doesn't want to win. Doesn't see what is obvious.

I think, and have written here, that given the current situation, he and the club would be better off if he left. It's just untenable for either party. I'm not sure it was inevitably so, but it has become so. So don't blow this "I'm happy with what's going on and have zero expectations bull at me." Only thing I'm happy with is, it's still Villa.

I was one of those who was against him from the outset, I dont like the man, the management style, the fact he plays poor football with dire results and dour attacking intent.

I said it in August, he was on borrowed time the moment he walked through the door. No pedigree and not good enough to be Villa manager.

Funny though that even then there were those pleading for happy thoughts and thinking that he was deserving of the chance. Funny how many are now in the McLeish out camp.

[Bazmonkey]

MON best points etc was beacuse the good players were still here....Melberg was still first to go to Italy..... then laursen year later..then Barry....Milner...Young....etc now none of them are left.....yes we finsish 6th that arguement again but each year the football started to go down hill....yes we got the results which to be fair its a results game but towards MON stint we ere often on the back foot for a majority of the game...at some point it was all going to change now add the better players starting to leave....as they left those poor players had to come in.

Yes Mcleish is a poor manager and has made some poor errors but I still think the majority of the blame is with the players....opinion

McLeish has Bent, N'zogbia, Given, Dunne (When on form), Gabby, Ireland et al.

Yes Laursen, Mellberg, Milner and Young are massive players to replace but I personally think it's not the quality of the player we have that is the problem. It's solely down to man motivation.

Good point...we know those players can play...problem is they all dont play well together at the same time...one of them is bound to play well while the other as a mare......perhaps man motivation is the answer...cant see the zog being motivated at the mo though after the toon game

[mikeyp102]

If he were to go now, it would need a big name to come in, someone like Capello

It would be pointless appointing another mediocre manager such as Curbishley Shteve or Sven.

OFF TOPIC but - Capello - SERIOUSLY? The bloke didn't like England or the nature of football here, despite his success at clubs avroad he would be awful english club manager (and we couldn't afford him).

ON TOPIC - As for McLeish he has some good players and should be inspiring them to play better. I beleive if we started games with the intent to attack, rather than leaving that onus to the opponent, we would be a far greater position.

[BOF]

I beleive if we started games with the intent to attack, rather than leaving that onus to the opponent, we would be a far greater position.

I believe so too. In fact, we usually prove that to be the case around the 86th minute onwards. I've said before that I don't think he's too far from getting it right. We definitely have the players. We're even selecting the right players and putting them in the right positions / formations (Winger Heskey notwithstanding). We're just sending them onto the pitch with the wrong instructions. And if Eck refuses to change the instructions then he'll sadly probably never get it right. And a leopard, I believe, has trouble changing it's spots.

[CI]

I'm not disagreeing or defending him, but he's delivered more silverware than any villa manager in the last 16 years. Has to be offset of course by the miserable football and the relegations

[TrentVilla]

BUT…..more of blame in not all clearly has to lie with the players…they are simply not good enough…..McLeish has his faults but when the players cross the white line the players have to tale responsibility…the football if you call it that is shocking…no movement…hoof…McLeish is standing shouting at them and often can be seen looking at them going WTF….keep the ball. The team cant even do basic things right so what chance have we got

You must have read my previous post as this was in response to it but I'm seriously struggling to understand how you could post this in response to what I'd posted.

No the blame doesn't clearly lie with the players. As I previously stated as an example, look at Sunderland under O'Neill compared to Sunderland under Bruce. This is nothing to do with comparing O'Neill and McLeish, just compare Sunderland under O'Neill to under Bruce with exactly the same players.

The players haven't changed, there the exact same players and they haven't become better players. They are simply playing for a different manager, they are motivated and they are playing to their strengths or he is picking players that who's strengths match the system he wants to play.

In short Sunderland are an example of the impact of the manager on a group of players. I firmly believe while we have some issues with some players the main problem is the manager not the players.

Yes poor subs…Heskey on the left…but when we cant make a simple 5 yard pass what’s he to do.

How about not pick him in the first place, especially not in midfield.

If Barry et al were still here with Mcleish as the manager do you think we would be where we are now……if yes then its Mcleish but if no then it’s the team….

I don't think we would be that much better off put it that way.

We are no better than Birmingham were last season and I'm damn sure he has a better set of players to work with than he did there last season. So I'd argue that despite better resources the end result is the same so the problem quite clearly is the manager.