Mortimer Thinks Petrov is Rubbish (Poll Added)

[ozvillafan]

MON was wrong with his Moscow selection - I don't think you will find many Villa fans that disagree with that??

I disagree with that

Seems GH did too. He went TWO louder, he did the same in the League and FA Cups too

UEFA Cup is a poisoned chalice, not worth the coke you can fill it with

The Domestic cups are heading that way too

I'm curious, Bicks.

When you say "not worth it" - do you mean financially? Or in some other way?

To me, it's silverware - something we have been lacking lately and should still aspire to.

[bickster]

Well the UEFA whatever its called this week isn't worth a carrot to a PL team with half a brain. Who wants to play equivalent of 19 extra games (thats an extra half a season) to win £9mil (iirc thats what you eventually win) plus a bit of tv money. It's financial for sure but its financial viability, it is virtually impossible for a PL team to do justice to the competition, the squad size you require for the commitment is huge. You win less than one decent forwards transfer fee!

It's not just financial, it's practical you cannot possibly compete if you are a PL team and do both competitions justice without a huge squad (the prize money does not justify this), not only that if you enter the UEFA cup you are forced to play the majority of your games in the PL on a Sunday, as a fan I think thats utterly shit. Not only that but you get to the latter stages and you get all the failed CL teams dumped on you.

It's become obvious now, Liverpool and Spurs were doing their utmost to finish 6th at the end of the season but Dalglish outsmarted Redknapp in the end and failed to qualify

Football cubs have to be run on financial grounds, either you accept that or you'll never see my point

The cynic in me has always said the UEFA cup is designed to keep those second tier clubs in the top leagues exactly that, in the second tier, not competing with the names in the G14, sorry CL ;-)

Clubs will always prioritise the PL unless they are in the CL as the rewards are far greater in that competition. The ball ache of the UEFA isn't financially viable for clubs in the top Euro Leagues

[ozvillafan]

Thanks Bicks.

I agree that clubs "have to be run on financial grounds" - but they also have a remit to win things. Football is not just a business.

I can see that the UEFA cup in it's current format is not worth it - which means UEFA need to pull their finger out and not just bow to the wishes of the bigger clubs (who only care about themselves, not the health of the game). It won't take much to fix, like fewer games and/or the winner gets a spot in the CL the following year.

The local cups, however, are what? 4-6 games and all "local"? It should still be a priority.

[maqroll]

You know what would be fun? An annual "Midlands Cup"

Villa

SHA

Wolves

West Brom

Coventry

Leicester

The police wouldn't like it, but it'd be good fun otherwise

[MrDuck]

The cynic in me has always said the UEFA cup is designed to keep those second tier clubs in the top leagues exactly that, in the second tier, not competing with the names in the G14, sorry CL ;-)

Damn straight.

I agree that clubs "have to be run on financial grounds" - but they also have a remit to win things. Football is not just a business.

All businesses have a remit to win things - might not be a sports competition, but they still have to perform in their chosen market. Modern football IS now just a business for all involved (fans aside), I think.

Mind you, it's surely one of the only businesses where you apparently don't need to turn a profit - or even break even - to stay alive.

[DelboyVilla]

Winning things in football makes you more profitable and marketable. Watching us play Chelsea in HK I was amazed at the number of Chelsea 'fans' in the stadium. 15 years ago or even 10 no one in the far east would have a clue who they were but now with the CL and Premier League worldwide coverage they have tapped into a massive potential market.

Going back OT Stan is too old and slow to be our captain but however he is better than the rest and first on the team sheet unfortunately!

[steaknchips]

It's become obvious now, Liverpool and Spurs were doing their utmost to finish 6th at the end of the season but Dalglish outsmarted Redknapp in the end and failed to qualify

I agree with everything you said appart from this, which is absolute rubbish. A Club wont go all out to delibrately finish outside a Europa League place just to avoid entering the competition. Liverpool could still have taken the money for competing and played a complete reserve line up in the competition..It would have helped their youngsters get a few games under their belts and not effected any 1st team players at all. Its also useful for players looking to get extra match fitness..Or for managers to try out various tactical changes etc. And a club in Liverpool's/Spur's situation would love a crack at winning the Europa Cup.As both clubs are light years away from ever winning a CL final or a Premierleague title.

[rodigan]

Winning things in football makes you more profitable and marketable. Watching us play Chelsea in HK I was amazed at the number of Chelsea 'fans' in the stadium. 15 years ago or even 10 no one in the far east would have a clue who they were but now with the CL and Premier League worldwide coverage they have tapped into a massive potential market.

Chelsea were also smart enough to hand out 5,000 blue and white checked flags outside the stadium to anyone going in... the locals here will wave anything as long as its free... having said that, as far as marketable clubs in Asia go, Villa are way behind the big clubs - man u, arsenal, chelsea and liverpool. Liverpool had 30,000 fans turn up in malaysia the other day to watch training and filled an 80,000 seater for a friendly against the national team...

The HK lions is somewhat more modest in nature, although i must admit it was much much better than the fanclub for the venky's boys - blackburn had 2 fans turn up to greet them when they arrived at the airport in Hong Kong...

[barry'sboots]

DM speaking sense again. I don't see what you are trying to prove re posting this. It isn't anti-Villa, its his view and it makes a lot of sense to me: MON was wrong with his Moscow selection - I don't think you will find many Villa fans that disagree with that?? - and the signing of Heskey led to a difficult time for Gabby as he was unable to adjust quickly to playing with a striker that pushes up against the CB.

So you agree with Mortimer that rotation is a bad thing and you should play your strongest 11 every week? I think this represents a big conversion from your previous views!

Also, if you read his comments more carefully, you will see he is NOT saying Heskey was responsible for Gabby's drop in form. He blames Gabby and says MON should have dropped him.

Mortimer's rant above is inconsistent - some of the things he says contradict others - and he is playing his usual game of trying to pick up on any theme he thinks will be popular with some dissident fans, no matter how negative the impact might be on the morale of the squad or Villa's image. He rarely says anything supportive of Villa.

Do you also agree with him that it would have been best for SHA to win the derby in April 2006?

I think you are twisting things a bit to suit your argument. I am a fan of freshening things up occasionally and trying things out if you are not winning/playing poorly. I have never been an advocate of 11 changes - unless you have the resources of a Citeh - and certainly not playing your second XI in a European Cup tie!

I think the signing of Heskey contributed to Gabby's poor form BECAUSE Gabby effectively had to change the way that he played and he didn't respond. It was still in Gabby's hands.

I am not sure he said it was "best" for Blues to win but rather that Blues would win. Probably not too controversial as they had a superior track record in recent derbies at that time if I have got my dates correct??

[barry'sboots]

Well the UEFA whatever its called this week isn't worth a carrot to a PL team with half a brain. Who wants to play equivalent of 19 extra games (thats an extra half a season) to win £9mil (iirc thats what you eventually win) plus a bit of tv money. It's financial for sure but its financial viability, it is virtually impossible for a PL team to do justice to the competition, the squad size you require for the commitment is huge. You win less than one decent forwards transfer fee!

It's not just financial, it's practical you cannot possibly compete if you are a PL team and do both competitions justice without a huge squad (the prize money does not justify this), not only that if you enter the UEFA cup you are forced to play the majority of your games in the PL on a Sunday, as a fan I think thats utterly shit. Not only that but you get to the latter stages and you get all the failed CL teams dumped on you.

It's become obvious now, Liverpool and Spurs were doing their utmost to finish 6th at the end of the season but Dalglish outsmarted Redknapp in the end and failed to qualify

Football cubs have to be run on financial grounds, either you accept that or you'll never see my point

The cynic in me has always said the UEFA cup is designed to keep those second tier clubs in the top leagues exactly that, in the second tier, not competing with the names in the G14, sorry CL ;-)

Clubs will always prioritise the PL unless they are in the CL as the rewards are far greater in that competition. The ball ache of the UEFA isn't financially viable for clubs in the top Euro Leagues

I don't necessarily disagree with this but I would make two points:

1. It was about momentum at the time. We lost it with MON's actions for me.

2. If he had stated up front that he was not going to treat the Uefa cup seriously and use it to blood the reserves/youth I don't think we would have lost momentum or that he would have upset the fans that travelled to Moscow.

I could understand his decision in the circumstances, I just don't like the way it was managed and think it had a negative impact.

[bickster]

bb don't you think its amazing we've bombed out early every other year too? Think Rapid Vienna are such a great side?

I'm fairly sure if MON or anyone else had said that, there would have been action taken against him.

The momentum argument is ridiculous, so ridiculous its a non argument. Most of the first team weren't playing, how could they lose momentum. Always been a nonsense argument.

SnC - it was almost common knowledge in Liverpool at the end of last season that KD did not want to qualify for the UEFA, even their fans were of the opinion it was a waste of time

[OutByEaster?]

Well the UEFA whatever its called this week isn't worth a carrot to a PL team with half a brain. Who wants to play equivalent of 19 extra games (thats an extra half a season) to win £9mil (iirc thats what you eventually win) plus a bit of tv money. It's financial for sure but its financial viability, it is virtually impossible for a PL team to do justice to the competition, the squad size you require for the commitment is huge. You win less than one decent forwards transfer fee!

Nine of those games are home games - that's nine more sets of income, nine more opportunities to make the £2m Villa make from a full house - financially, more games make sense - there's no great additional expenditure just additional revenue and revenue is the thing we're working hardest as a club to increase. As a financial decision I don't buy it Bicks.

[bickster]

THey are very rarely full houses, they are usually quite low attendances even on discounted tickets. When costs are factored in I doubt we ever make much money on a UEFA game

EDIT: you also have to factor in the lost revenue from your poorer performance in the PL and at £1mil a place roughly thats a huge loss of income over the season if you don't perform as well in the PL

And of course there's additional expenditure, all the stewards and the police bill can't come cheap then there's the staff on the concessions stalls (which don't take as much money due to attendances and its a weekday night fixture) plus no doubt the players get playing bonuses and win bonuses etc

[briny_ear]

I am not sure he said it was "best" for Blues to win but rather that Blues would win. Probably not too controversial as they had a superior track record in recent derbies at that time if I have got my dates correct??

I don't think he could have made his support for SHA over Villa any more clear.

I want Blues to win derby - Mortimer

* By Bill Howell, Birmingham Mail

* Apr 15 2006

VILLA legend Dennis Mortimer will take his seat in the Doug Ellis Stand tomorrow, or the "Witton Lane Stand" as he prefers to call it, hoping for three points. But the thing that may shock almost every man, jack and 'claret and blueite' is that he is hoping that win belongs to Blues.

The 54-year-old will forever go down in Villa Park folklore as the man who held aloft the League Championship and the European Cup and Super Cup during a 10-year Villa career that saw him amass more than 400 appearances.

Mortimer has, of course, held an almost venomous dislike of 82-year-old chairman Doug Ellis for some years, a man he sees as singularly responsible for the club's demise since they hit the heady heights under Ron Saunders.

But losing to Blues in such a grudge match, where three points for one will condemn the other to an ugly dogfight?

Has it really got so bad that one of the club's favourite sons would wish for that?

Mortimer says Villa's fans are losing all hope and that the club has long since lost its way.

"The Villa fans are talking about beating Albion and Blues as being their season. But that's not good enough," he insists.

"We should be talking about winning trophies and playing in Europe. The supporters are desperate for a win tomorrow as that would mean they have done the 'double' over Blues. That would be the only thing they could take out of this season - beating Blues and sending them down.

"That shouldn't be what it is about, but a lot of the fans will see it that way. It would make their season. A win for Villa would make them safe, while Blues would still be battling. But me, I'd like to see Birmingham win."

Mortimer finished his career at Blues in 1986 after spending a season with Brighton and is currently employed by their Community Scheme.

In stark contrast to his feelings for Ellis and Co, he remains a staunch admirer of the Golds, David Sullivan and Karren Brady.

"I want them to stay in the Premier League because of what they have done over the past five years or so. The transformation, not just of the ground where one stand is all that is left to be done, but the training facilities and everything has been astonishing.

"It would be a shame if they had to take one step back, so I want them to get all three points."

Mortimer recognises that that would effectively put Albion, where he had a brief coaching role in the late 90's, on the brink.

"I'd ideally like Albion to stay up as well because if both Albion and Blues went down it would make Villa even more complacent.

"In my opinion they have grown too complacent anyway. It took them eight years to look at improvements to the changing ground when everyone else was doing it years ago. I see Villa standing still with the other two clubs going forwards. That's why it would be a shame to lose one or both of them.

"It would be better to have competition to drive standards up. At the moment, do Villa compare to the rest of the Premier League?

"We have a great ground, but on the pitch we are falling further behind. And I see what Blues and Albion have invested to stay up. Villa have not done so, and we are very fortunate to have points already in the bag.

"Albion and Blues have thrown points away. Neither have got rewards for battling performances.

"One will go, and both could easily be sent down because of Portsmouth and that would be a shame.

"Villa have got away with playing poorly most of the season and they are lucky they are not already involved in a real dogfight."

Although manager David O'Leary takes a share of the blame for Villa's plight in 15th place, Mortimer reserves most of his criticism for old foe Ellis.

"The manager and the chairman are having a battle for the higher ground and the Villa fans are all the poorer for it because we are not getting the performances from the team that we want to see. Plenty of fans are losing hope," he says.

"The chairman has been there for too long. Many fans won't take up their season tickets and that's not the way it should be."

And that whole article is typical of his public utterances - confused, angry, self-contradictory. As I said earlier, our greatest captain and one of our best midfielders ever just makes himself smaller every time he opens his mouth.

[Troglodyte]

Is this thread not about Petrov / the captaincy?

Genuine question - who would people like to see as captain if Petrov were to be replaced in the starting XI?

[Kiwivillan]

I posted this on another forum. It is the reason I feel the way I do about Petrov mainly. Take is as you like:

As an aside because his names been brought up, for me, regardless of his departure, Barry was 10 times the player and 100 times the captain Petrov will ever be. There was that one season where Barry inspired losses into wins or draws(remember the penalty for the 4-4 with Chelsea. Every neutral in the pub in Dublin was willing him to score and cheering when he did) I can honestly say, I don't remember Petrov ever "turning" a game for us in a positive way as captain. I remember to badly the 1-0 against Blackburn then 1-1 which he was responsible for then them getting a man sent off and us losing 2-1 which as I recall was the fault of Petrov letting his man glide past him. So many times he's been an absolute joke in games we've lost. Like a winger in rugby that can't tackle for shit and all the tries get scored on his side because he's such a pushover. I've played football since I was 6 and I'm not an amazing player but I think I know the game well and I've always thought Petrov is a poor poor player in one of thee most important, hardest to play well positions on the pitch in CM. Never thought he was capable in such a integral position but he's been blessed with being paired with some outstanding players as Barry, and Milner and even Reo-Coker when it comes to tackling and he really has and continues to get shown up for his defeciencies when he doesn't have such a player next to him.

That's heartfelt. Respond as you will.

[barry'sboots]

bb don't you think its amazing we've bombed out early every other year too? Think Rapid Vienna are such a great side?

I'm fairly sure if MON or anyone else had said that, there would have been action taken against him.

The momentum argument is ridiculous, so ridiculous its a non argument. Most of the first team weren't playing, how could they lose momentum. Always been a nonsense argument.

SnC - it was almost common knowledge in Liverpool at the end of last season that KD did not want to qualify for the UEFA, even their fans were of the opinion it was a waste of time

As I said, I don't disagree with your argument about the trophy's worth. However, before people bought tickets for Moscow MON/someone at the club, should have come out and said that "we see this as the ideal opportunity to give the youngsters some great experience". This would have given a clear signal and people would have known what to expect. This would have been no more punishable than playing the team that he did but would have set expectations.

I disagree with you, however, re momentum - this is about more than just the first team players. It is about the feeling around the club, how the fans are etc.. I think MON's actions in Moscow deflated the whole club - we all felt disappointed because we had expected something different (managing expectations is key!) and I believe that the fans transmitted this around the ground in the next game. It wasn't helped by MON's poor handling of the 2-0 lead against Stoke in that game.

[Lombardo]

I posted this on another forum. It is the reason I feel the way I do about Petrov mainly. Take is as you like:

As an aside because his names been brought up, for me, regardless of his departure, Barry was 10 times the player and 100 times the captain Petrov will ever be. There was that one season where Barry inspired losses into wins or draws(remember the penalty for the 4-4 with Chelsea. Every neutral in the pub in Dublin was willing him to score and cheering when he did) I can honestly say, I don't remember Petrov ever "turning" a game for us in a positive way as captain. I remember to badly the 1-0 against Blackburn then 1-1 which he was responsible for then them getting a man sent off and us losing 2-1 which as I recall was the fault of Petrov letting his man glide past him. So many times he's been an absolute joke in games we've lost. Like a winger in rugby that can't tackle for shit and all the tries get scored on his side because he's such a pushover. I've played football since I was 6 and I'm not an amazing player but I think I know the game well and I've always thought Petrov is a poor poor player in one of thee most important, hardest to play well positions on the pitch in CM. Never thought he was capable in such a integral position but he's been blessed with being paired with some outstanding players as Barry, and Milner and even Reo-Coker when it comes to tackling and he really has and continues to get shown up for his defeciencies when he doesn't have such a player next to him.

That's heartfelt. Respond as you will.

The words broken and record spring to mind.

[Kiwivillan]

I posted this on another forum. It is the reason I feel the way I do about Petrov mainly. Take is as you like:

As an aside because his names been brought up, for me, regardless of his departure, Barry was 10 times the player and 100 times the captain Petrov will ever be. There was that one season where Barry inspired losses into wins or draws(remember the penalty for the 4-4 with Chelsea. Every neutral in the pub in Dublin was willing him to score and cheering when he did) I can honestly say, I don't remember Petrov ever "turning" a game for us in a positive way as captain. I remember to badly the 1-0 against Blackburn then 1-1 which he was responsible for then them getting a man sent off and us losing 2-1 which as I recall was the fault of Petrov letting his man glide past him. So many times he's been an absolute joke in games we've lost. Like a winger in rugby that can't tackle for shit and all the tries get scored on his side because he's such a pushover. I've played football since I was 6 and I'm not an amazing player but I think I know the game well and I've always thought Petrov is a poor poor player in one of thee most important, hardest to play well positions on the pitch in CM. Never thought he was capable in such a integral position but he's been blessed with being paired with some outstanding players as Barry, and Milner and even Reo-Coker when it comes to tackling and he really has and continues to get shown up for his defeciencies when he doesn't have such a player next to him.

That's heartfelt. Respond as you will.

The words broken and record spring to mind.

You're like a broken record commenting on my feelings about Petrov. I've told you what I think and why. How about you and not the usual banal "he's such a great ambassador"

When has he influenced games by his captaincy. I mean **** seriously. He never has. Never!

[bose]

I posted this on another forum. It is the reason I feel the way I do about Petrov mainly. Take is as you like:

As an aside because his names been brought up, for me, regardless of his departure, Barry was 10 times the player and 100 times the captain Petrov will ever be. There was that one season where Barry inspired losses into wins or draws(remember the penalty for the 4-4 with Chelsea. Every neutral in the pub in Dublin was willing him to score and cheering when he did) I can honestly say, I don't remember Petrov ever "turning" a game for us in a positive way as captain. I remember to badly the 1-0 against Blackburn then 1-1 which he was responsible for then them getting a man sent off and us losing 2-1 which as I recall was the fault of Petrov letting his man glide past him. So many times he's been an absolute joke in games we've lost. Like a winger in rugby that can't tackle for shit and all the tries get scored on his side because he's such a pushover. I've played football since I was 6 and I'm not an amazing player but I think I know the game well and I've always thought Petrov is a poor poor player in one of thee most important, hardest to play well positions on the pitch in CM. Never thought he was capable in such a integral position but he's been blessed with being paired with some outstanding players as Barry, and Milner and even Reo-Coker when it comes to tackling and he really has and continues to get shown up for his defeciencies when he doesn't have such a player next to him.

That's heartfelt. Respond as you will.

The words broken and record spring to mind.

You're like a broken record commenting on my feelings about Petrov. I've told you what I think and why. How about you and not the usual banal "he's such a great ambassador"

When has he influenced games by his captaincy. I mean **** seriously. He never has. Never!

Well one recent game comes straight to mind - the game versus Man City at Villa Park in January where he was fantastic in a 1-0 win when we were in dire form.