High Line ..Pros and Cons

[Tomaszk]

1 hour ago, WallisFrizz said:

Pros-we’ve beaten mid and lower table opposition comfortably.

Cons-I’m deferring this until after we’ve played Spurs, City and Arsenal.

The way to trouble us is be brave and massively press high and get the ball off us in our half.

Newcastle did it, Liverpool did it, Forest did it. Tottenham will likely try it.

If you sit back, we'll break you down and likely score more than you.

[It's Your Round]

Pros have been well documented above but just to add that in some way it’s good that the stupid pundits keep raving about how risky our high line is. It pushes the narrative that a well executed long ball into space will see teams in acres of space through on goal. It’s such a teasing, tasty trap that tempts teams to try it over and over again, which plays into our hands as we catch them offside again. It’s a well choreographed thing of beauty, and the more people say it’s easily exposed and risky, the more we’ll prove it’s not. 

[DevonIsAPlaceOnEarth]

Pro - it’s got us to fifth in the table with our best home form in 40 years.

[It's Your Round]

I’ve got so used to the trap working now that when Fulham scored on Saturday, I just assumed it would be ruled out. Was quite shocked when it was allowed. 

[villa89]

Con, linesmen don't put up the damn flag when someone is offside. Every game my heart skips a beat when some one who is offside runs through 1 on 1. 

[avfc1982am]

9 minutes ago, villa89 said:

Con, linesmen don't put up the damn flag when someone is offside. Every game my heart skips a beat when some one who is offside runs through 1 on 1. 

The ridiculous thing about this is the potential for injuries in not stopping the play. Allowing the play to continue for so long before flagging is dumb. 

[OutByEaster?]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

With VAR you have to let the game run on. If the linesman flags straight away and then VAR checks it and the decision was wrong, then they can’t do anything. They’ve already stopped the game. 

If the linesman keeps his flag down, the player runs on and scores and THEN the linesman flags, then if they go to VAR and the linesman is wrong then they can let the goal stand.

It is annoying at times, but if VAR is a thing they have to do it that way

The problem they've then got is that if the defensive team gets a foot on the ball, or the keeper makes a save - then we're in a new phase and the attacking team can score again. It's a ridiculous form of advantage where the advantage is given to the team committing the offence.

We're almost at the point where a smart keeper that trusts his defence knows that the best thing he can do is let the ball past him into the net as that will trigger the flag and get his team a free kick - rather than try and save it and potentially negate the offside in doing so and put his team in danger of conceding.

I'd sooner they were just occasionally wrong.

[Stevo985]

17 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

The problem they've then got is that if the defensive team gets a foot on the ball, or the keeper makes a save - then we're in a new phase and the attacking team can score again. It's a ridiculous form of advantage where the advantage is given to the team committing the offence.

We're almost at the point where a smart keeper that trusts his defence knows that the best thing he can do is let the ball past him into the net as that will trigger the flag and get his team a free kick - rather than try and save it and potentially negate the offside in doing so and put his team in danger of conceding.

I'd sooner they were just occasionally wrong.

The flag goes up when a new phase of play is started,  so I disagree.

 

 

That does, of course, assume that VAR works properly. What would actually happen is Man Utd would get a penalty somehow. And they're not even playing.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Stevo985

[turvontour]

3 hours ago, WallisFrizz said:

Pros-we’ve beaten mid and lower table opposition comfortably.

Cons-I’m deferring this until after we’ve played Spurs, City and Arsenal.

We beat spurs using it. Also, Brighton twice, Chelsea twice, Man U, Newcastle etc. I wouldn't call those teams mid and lower teams.

[turvontour]

1 hour ago, DevonIsAPlaceOnEarth said:

Pro - it’s got us to fifth in the table with our best home form in 40 years.

We're kind of really about third in terms of points since Emery came in. We are closer to first than 6th is prob a better way of saying it.

I completely agree though. 

[villa4europe]

8 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Nah. 
 

With VAR you have to let the game run on. If the linesman flags straight away and then VAR checks it and the decision was wrong, then they can’t do anything. They’ve already stopped the game. 
 

If the linesman keeps his flag down, the player runs on and scores and THEN the linesman flags, then if they go to VAR and the linesman is wrong then they can let the goal stand. 
 

It is annoying at times, but if VAR is a thing they have to do it that way

Honest they're not close anymore

Cash's missed chance vs forest at the back post Ollie is over a metre offside, it's not hard 

They're ignoring blatant offsides to let chances develop, it deceives the audience in to thinking games are better than they actually are, as a result the PL product is more entertaining 

PGMOL part of the excitement 

Edited November 14, 2023 by villa4europe

[CVByrne]

8 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

The problem they've then got is that if the defensive team gets a foot on the ball, or the keeper makes a save - then we're in a new phase and the attacking team can score again. It's a ridiculous form of advantage where the advantage is given to the team committing the offence.

We're almost at the point where a smart keeper that trusts his defence knows that the best thing he can do is let the ball past him into the net as that will trigger the flag and get his team a free kick - rather than try and save it and potentially negate the offside in doing so and put his team in danger of conceding.

I'd sooner they were just occasionally wrong.

This is why we PL clubs need to approve the semi automated VAR for offsides. These work because we get the accurate decision for the "simple" offsides quickly. Which is a benefit for teams who win a lot of offsides. We get more control of the game and need to expend less wasted energy defending offside attacks. 

It's up again for PL to approve it was reported and that because of the slate of VAR issues with offside they will likely approve it this time. This is a big help for us. 

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, villa4europe said:

Honest they're not close anymore

Cash's missed chance vs forest at the back post Ollie is over a metre offside, it's not hard 

They're ignoring blatant offsides to let chances develop, it deceives the audience in to thinking games are better than they actually are, as a result the PL product is more entertaining 

PGMOL part of the excitement 

Technology can make offside completely automated in a few years and that will be biggest help for the game. I think the next issue is handball penalties. Totally random what is and isn't a penalty. Also shirt pulls, just make them always a foul and thus no issue for any interpretation. IF you grabbed a shirt you have no complaints.

[Zatman]

9 hours ago, avfc1982am said:

The ridiculous thing about this is the potential for injuries in not stopping the play. Allowing the play to continue for so long before flagging is dumb. 

The Luton game was as clear an offside as can get and they still played on for about 15 seconds

[CVByrne]

What is the most fascinating about our high line is the fact we do it without the high press. Normally it's to compact the pitch and thus make it smaller and aid the press and restrict the space. We remain more compact with the high line and press with triggers after the opposition begin to play out from back. There has to be some traps being laid as in allowing teams to play to out wide and then forcing the pass forward from there at which time our back line step forward and thus offside and we regain possession and thus control. We also win the most tactical fouls which again turns over possession and gives us control. 

I think the crux of this is we have a blueprint for the team and we layer in match specific tweaks. This is simply down to having a clear genius as head coach, a club structure set up to support him fully and a squad of players fully bought into their coaches ideas.

I still feel we are short in attacking departments. We'll see more structured and determined low blocks and counter attack like Forest had which need some different skillsets to unlock as I feel a different type of Striker to Watkins is often needed to come on in these types of games and we don't have that player. 

[jimmygreaves]

10 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Nah. 
 

With VAR you have to let the game run on. If the linesman flags straight away and then VAR checks it and the decision was wrong, then they can’t do anything. They’ve already stopped the game. 
 

If the linesman keeps his flag down, the player runs on and scores and THEN the linesman flags, then if they go to VAR and the linesman is wrong then they can let the goal stand. 
 

It is annoying at times, but if VAR is a thing they have to do it that way

But that isn't always the case. It seems to depend on the linesman. Case in point during the Fulham match.

Every through ball that Fulham played the lino kept the flag down in the second half. Even when the player was blatantly offside.

Going the other way, when we played it forward the flag went up immediately for even some pretty close calls.

In truth I prefer that. Let the lino make the call when it's clear they can. It stops all the bullshit.

[CVByrne]

8 minutes ago, jimmygreaves said:

But that isn't always the case. It seems to depend on the linesman. Case in point during the Fulham match.

Every through ball that Fulham played the lino kept the flag down in the second half. Even when the player was blatantly offside.

Going the other way, when we played it forward the flag went up immediately for even some pretty close calls.

In truth I prefer that. Let the lino make the call when it's clear they can. It stops all the bullshit.

Or just approve the semi automated offside that was used in World Cup and PL rejected bringing in this season but looks like the will approve next season. 

The purpose is technology can just give you offside in real time in most cases so flag just goes up as lineman is told offside. Only need VAR for the marginal cases where it's very close or in the more complicated offsides.

This solves the problem 

[Vive_La_Villa]

Those offside stats are crazy. I knew we used the trap a lot but that’s mental. 
 

Also I get the linesmen keeping the flag down and it being very frustrating. It’s just something we have to accept really as they want to avoid incorrect offside calls. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Or just approve the semi automated offside that was used in World Cup and PL rejected bringing in this season but looks like the will approve next season. 

The purpose is technology can just give you offside in real time in most cases so flag just goes up as lineman is told offside. Only need VAR for the marginal cases where it's very close or in the more complicated offsides.

This solves the problem 

This is the way.

[jimmygreaves]

11 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Or just approve the semi automated offside that was used in World Cup and PL rejected bringing in this season but looks like the will approve next season. 

The purpose is technology can just give you offside in real time in most cases so flag just goes up as lineman is told offside. Only need VAR for the marginal cases where it's very close or in the more complicated offsides.

This solves the problem 

I don't disagree but a bunch of the cases we're talking about aren't close calls. They're clear and obvious