High Line ..Pros and Cons

[Vive_La_Villa]

4 minutes ago, jimmygreaves said:

I don't disagree but a bunch of the cases we're talking about aren't close calls. They're clear and obvious 

True but there was a few people around me that were adamant that Fulham’s goal was offside. They were in shock that there was no lengthy Var checks and struggled to let it go. 

Sometimes it can look miles off but actually be on.  I get where you’re coming from though.

In the first year of VAR the flag would go up but the play was allowed to continue. It was up to the players if they wanted to risk stopping or not.  I think there was only a couple of incidents play continued and the goal was given.

Is that a better way of doing it ?

[Stevo985]

5 hours ago, villa4europe said:

Honest they're not close anymore

Cash's missed chance vs forest at the back post Ollie is over a metre offside, it's not hard 

They're ignoring blatant offsides to let chances develop, it deceives the audience in to thinking games are better than they actually are, as a result the PL product is more entertaining 

PGMOL part of the excitement 

Nope. This is conspiracy theory stuff

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, jimmygreaves said:

But that isn't always the case. It seems to depend on the linesman. Case in point during the Fulham match.

Every through ball that Fulham played the lino kept the flag down in the second half. Even when the player was blatantly offside.

Going the other way, when we played it forward the flag went up immediately for even some pretty close calls.

In truth I prefer that. Let the lino make the call when it's clear they can. It stops all the bullshit.

It probably does depend on the linesman. They probably put the flag up when they’re 100% certain, but some will be more confident than others. 
 

I think the idea that they’re doing it to make games seem more exciting is fantasy though

[villa4europe]

23 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Nope. This is conspiracy theory stuff

nope

if they were just letting VAR fix it then they wouldn't flag at all

as it is you can have 1 guy run through 1v1 with the keeper, blatantly offside, there wont be another phase of play, they'll let him run 30 yards and get his shot off before raising the flag - what else are they doing there? what are they waiting for? the exciting chance, that's it

[PaulC]

All pro to me. Like had been said it's got us to 5th and the only way to beat the top teams is to play the way they do only better.

[The_Rev]

Pro: it means our midfield plays 15-20 yards closer to goal than they used to and that’s why Dougie and McGinn are scoring more goals than they did under previous managers. 

[Stevo985]

38 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

nope

if they were just letting VAR fix it then they wouldn't flag at all

as it is you can have 1 guy run through 1v1 with the keeper, blatantly offside, there wont be another phase of play, they'll let him run 30 yards and get his shot off before raising the flag - what else are they doing there? what are they waiting for? the exciting chance, that's it

They’re waiting to see if he scores. 
Then if they’re wrong, they can let the goal stand.
 

If they’d flagged straight away then there would be no goal to give in the event of them being wrong. 

I get that sometimes it seems obvious but where do you draw the line? It’s easy for us to say

[MikeMcKenna]

An interesting thing about the high defensive line strategy is that it effectively dictates the oppositions playing style. It forces their attackers to play in a very limited area of the pitch. However,   I am sure that Emery will make a few tweaks against the likes of Man city as they are so good at running across the line. 

[DCJonah]

19 hours ago, MWARLEY2 said:

Thought i would put this up as i just saw some stats.. top 5 current teams in the Premier League this season with offsides won

Arsenal...16

Liverpool...21

Man City ..22

Spurs....38

Villa ..58 !!!!!

They must have our back 4 working on it 24/7. 

Can I ask where you got those stats from?

I've been looking for something to show the pros of our high line. 

[MWARLEY2]

Just now, DCJonah said:

Can I ask where you got those stats from?

I've been looking for something to show the pros of our high line. 

Horace Levy on FB is where i saw it. 

[JPAngel]

The high line will end up being the reason we don't earn a lot of clean sheets this season and there will be teams (see: Newcastle and Liverpool) that have the right players to dismantle it. These are the games where we'll ship goals and "experts" will tear the us to shreds.

However, it will also be a major factor in the vast majority of wins this season as we catch teams offside, compress the pitch and break through teams at incredible speed resulting in scoring a boat load. These are the games where the same "experts" won't even mention the high line as they focus on the individual performances of our forwards.

In short, pundits haven't got a damn clue on what to focus on. It's dangerous but ultimately incredibly exciting and has resulted in our most successful period in years. Enjoy the ride.

Edited November 14, 2023 by JPAngel

[El Segundo]

20 hours ago, MWARLEY2 said:

Thought i would put this up as i just saw some stats.. top 5 current teams in the Premier League this season with offsides won

Arsenal...16

Liverpool...21

Man City ..22

Spurs....38

Villa ..58 !!!!!

They must have our back 4 working on it 24/7. 

Pros:  We should feature in Full Monty II instead of the Arsenal offside trap; It works 95% of the time.

Cons:  Requires massive concentration and cohesion - which we seem to manage most of the time ;  Players running from slightly deeper positions.  By the time they reach the defensive line they are running full pelt and difficult to catch.  Some coaches have cottoned on to this and beaten the trap a few times; It gives fans palpitations waiting for the flag to go up.

I also think it's strange we didn't see any detailed lines for the Alkmaar goal or the Fulham goal.  It would be nice to see the evidence.  And why can't the PL use the same system used in the World Cup and in Europe where they kind of overlay a screen across the pitch to see whose body parts are poking through.  Looks a much better system to me.  

 

[Hank Scorpio]

32 minutes ago, JPAngel said:

The high line will end up being the reason we don't earn a lot of clean sheets this season and there will be teams (see: Newcastle and Liverpool) that have the right players to dismantle it. These are the games where we'll ship goals and "experts" will tear the us to shreds.

However, it will also be a major factor in the vast majority of wins this season as we catch teams offside, compress the pitch and break through teams at incredible speed resulting in scoring a boat load. These are the games where the same "experts" won't even mention the high line as they focus on the individual performances of our forwards.

In short, pundits haven't got a damn clue on what to focus on. It's dangerous but ultimately incredibly exciting and has resulted in our most successful period in years. Enjoy the ride.

I don't see why people are assuming it's a given we will play with a high line against teams like Man City.

It's almost like.thinking Emery isn't able to adjust on rare occasions to opposition streghths.

He may play thise games differently now.

[rubberman]

43 minutes ago, JPAngel said:

see: Newcastle and Liverpool

It's going to be interesting to see over the next few games. For me, those were aberrations caused by the injuries to Mings/Carlos (I think) early in the games and before Emery had a chance to drill the replacements as it was so early in the season - Pau had only been here a couple of weeks. I think both the first choice and back up defenders now have it nailed and while the high line may get occasionally beaten, i don't expect us to be done over in the same way, even by the best attackers.

[BigJim]

1 hour ago, rubberman said:

It's going to be interesting to see over the next few games. For me, those were aberrations caused by the injuries to Mings/Carlos (I think) early in the games and before Emery had a chance to drill the replacements as it was so early in the season - Pau had only been here a couple of weeks. I think both the first choice and back up defenders now have it nailed and while the high line may get occasionally beaten, i don't expect us to be done over in the same way, even by the best attackers.

I don't feel quite as confident. Even Fulham very nearly got through several times.

[tonyh29]

Pros - we are 5th 

Cons - we aren't 1st 

It looks and sounds easy to beat the high line when you are a commentator , but on the whole most teams struggle to beat it , so lets keep with it 

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 hours ago, El Segundo said:

Pros:  We should feature in Full Monty II instead of the Arsenal offside trap; It works 95% of the time.

Cons:  Requires massive concentration and cohesion - which we seem to manage most of the time ;  Players running from slightly deeper positions.  By the time they reach the defensive line they are running full pelt and difficult to catch.  Some coaches have cottoned on to this and beaten the trap a few times; It gives fans palpitations waiting for the flag to go up.

I also think it's strange we didn't see any detailed lines for the Alkmaar goal or the Fulham goal.  It would be nice to see the evidence.  And why can't the PL use the same system used in the World Cup and in Europe where they kind of overlay a screen across the pitch to see whose body parts are poking through.  Looks a much better system to me.  

 

A lot harder to cheat.

[YLN]

If it wasn't for VAR, we wouldn't be playing such a high line. If VAR got binned in the morning, we'd be in trouble. 

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

Pros - we are 5th 

Cons - we aren't 1st 

It looks and sounds easy to beat the high line when you are a commentator , but on the whole most teams struggle to beat it , so lets keep with it 

 

From a passer perspective, it is very difficult as usually it is left to one of the back line players to try and hit that through ball.

The way we play the offside line, it is incredibly rare someone will receive the ball in space between our midfield and defenders and play a through ball. Think of it in a training scenario with the training dummies. They probably practice the through ball receiving it in the half space and then around one dummy.

But how often will they practice a long ball trying to find the runner between two or three lines of players (our forwards line, our midfield line, and our defence line). You have to get the timing, the accuracy, Watkins or Diaby pressing with the runner very far away from you. On the occasion that they get in between the lines, it's usually out wide and that's still not an easy ball to play.

Look at the perfect trap by Pau here. It's a still image, but Pau checks over his shoulder several times to see who's being played on. As the defender closer to the ball, it's going to be his responsibility to step up as the player is blind side of him. Konsa and Cash are looking down the line to make sure no one breaks and Pau is eyeing Iwobi. As soon as Iwobi puts his head down to make a pass, Pau steps up to trigger the trap, knowing Konsa and Cash will not be deeper than him. Where smarter opponents have been catching on is maybe faking the first pass and then making the pass for Wilson as Pau's momentum will be carrying him the wrong way.

It will be interesting to see what Unai chooses to do against City and Arsenal. Fan logic would think to play more defensively and he might as he did against Wolves - showing a level of respect to O'Neil that the little ponce didn't return back by not shaking Unai's hand at FT immediately. But Unai strikes me as a calculated gambler and, like in poker, aggression will win you a lot of hands...as long as you don't get trapped yourself.

 

[DJBOB]

Another pro for using the high line even when leading 3-1 in the 80th minute is that we avoid the bombardment opposing teams can occasionally pull off if we drop deep and just defend in a low block. In the 12 league matches, only 4 goals have been scored against us in the last 20 minutes. Newcastle with two when we were trying to get back into it, the OG vs Luton and Jimenez at 70'.

How many times over the decades have we seen Villa hanging on by a thread as the opponent has everyone in the box trying to get back into the match or get an equalizer? With the high line, we keep that pressure off, even though it's a heart in mouth moment every time an opponent is running through, waiting for the flag to go up.

Villa are 3rd in the league for opponents shots against, trailing behind only City and Arsenal. We do not allow teams to pin us back.

But...on the reverse, we are 17th in the league on Shots on Target % and 15th in the league in goals/shot against.

Unai has decided to gamble this season on the offside trap, limiting opponent's chances but when they get one - it's going to be a high quality shot.