The Aston Villa high line thread

[Ponky]

It wasn't really one game though. The Brentford friendly in the USA was a bit of a warning shot that teams might try and exploit the highline with more precise runs. The first goal scored in that game can from a run that started in their own half.

[Bazmonkey]

Interesting debate.

For me, I'm not a fan of it nor was I fan of it last season.  Reading some of the comments 'it worked last year' is not really looking at it properly.  Did it work last year...or....did we get away with it.  I'd say the later.  

And this is the problem, we got caught a lot playing high...last ditch tackles and even saves by Martinez, but ultimately, did we concede....No.  I look at the Spurs game at home, Even Newcastle, Brighton.

The issue with a high line is it doesn't make the opposition change the way they play....why...they will keep doing the same thing until eventually one gets through....Newcastle Saturday did this and capitalised many times.  Its a big risk.

So...what's the solution...I think Emry (only criticism) needs to realise that playing this system, and using sat as an example...we were 3-1 down and still playing high.  Just drop back a bit...soak it it up, let them beat you rather than give them an opportunity...a mid to low block....10 yards nothing major....this would cut the one over the top as the space is limited.  Why run the risk...just cut it out.

You can play a high line...with possession but without you cant just stand still...like the Barnes goal....no mans land...you need to react and thats to drop....quick....lot easier to catch up moving rather standing still.

For me...just drop back a bit...let the oppo beat you by making you do something....dont give them chance as ultimately...we will concede 

[DJBOB]

We had a stellar defensive record last season with the high line. One result won’t change the way we play. 
 
The problem was with the press intensity (missing Buendia and JJ) more than the philosophy. 

[WooJung]

While I am fine with us playing a high line, there are moments in games where we should be willing and able to play with a lower block. At the end of the game on Saturday we were just asking for humiliation by persisting with it.

Another example which comes to mind was Emery's second game in charge, against Man U in the league cup. We were leading midway through the second half, they had already missed a few very good chances by exposing our high line, we persisted with it and lost 4-2.

Ideally, we should be able to read the situation and deduce whether we are more likely to benefit or to pay the price for any given chosen tactical approach.

[KentVillan]

The high line isn’t the problem. It just needs a settled back four and better positional discipline from the midfielders in front of it.

A bad game against a very good Newcastle doesn’t suddenly mean we need to abandon a tactic which has served us well.

[Bazmonkey]

21 minutes ago, WooJung said:

While I am fine with us playing a high line, there are moments in games where we should be willing and able to play with a lower block. At the end of the game on Saturday we were just asking for humiliation by persisting with it.

Another example which comes to mind was Emery's second game in charge, against Man U in the league cup. We were leading midway through the second half, they had already missed a few very good chances by exposing our high line, we persisted with it and lost 4-2.

Ideally, we should be able to read the situation and deduce whether we are more likely to benefit or to pay the price for any given chosen tactical approach.

Spot on fella.  This is basically what I was trying say.  Lets use it...but we need to realise that when its looking a concern....change it up.

[Demitri_C]

Liverpool used the same high line yesterday and it worked well.  Its a excellent tactic if you can implement it correctly consistently 

[Mister_a]

If we scored the chances presented to us more consistently, the high line would probably be less of an issue

[TomC]

I don't think that Unai would do a 180º shift and suddenly abandon the high line. That said, he should have backup tactics in place for games when it isn't working. And he probably does; we used a low block a few times last season.

Better attacking from us on the wings would force the other team's wide players to defend deeper, which would make it harder to do what they did in the second half.

 

[ejs1111]

The high line works when the F and MF are getting pressure on the ball and making it difficult for them to drop balls in over the top.  Our F and MF press was very poor and disorganized on the day- we seemed a step behind all day- this gave NUFC ample time to get their heads up and drop passes over the top.  If we were pressing effectively- those passes would have been HOOFs in desperation and not properly timed.  Everyone has to work together as a team for the high line to work.  That did NOT happen on Saturday- and it exposed the back 4. UTV

[tinker]

Which goal was caused by the highline? I can think of one that could be deemed and that one also needed Konsa to mess up. Kamara had a bad game, a very bad game and never tracked any runners at all, Newcastle completely owned the midfield and even then we missed 2 sitters that would have changed the whole game.

Starting with 4 players, Kamara, Bailey, Diaby and Ollie, plus Mcginn being out wide meant we had no defensive protection from the middle. Doug tried but was overun, Cash as well.

Emery wants to keep possession with players who hold onto the ball and don't lose it but this means we lose the defensive side of the game if we are out of possession.

Kamara has to be rested and Bailey as well. Mcginn needs to be more central. Maybe play a back 3 with Torres playing Kamaras role.

We are not the finished article and these results will happen, Newcastle home record last season was bettered by only one team, City. 

[Sulberto21]

No pressure on the ball and you can play a low block and you’ll get murdered. That’s what the main issue was. 

Even then we missed quite a few sitters ourselves and created decent chances to make it a 5-5. 

[Marka Ragnos]

11 hours ago, TomC said:

I don't think that Unai would do a 180º shift and suddenly abandon the high line. That said, he should have backup tactics in place for games when it isn't working. And he probably does; we used a low block a few times last season.

Better attacking from us on the wings would force the other team's wide players to defend deeper, which would make it harder to do what they did in the second half.

 

My pet theory has been that on Saturday -- considering the totality of circumstances after the Mings injury -- he assessed the situation and calculated that some big shift would introduce yet more strangeness into the game plan and further unnerve our players. And he just felt that was a bridge too far. Something like this: "The squad is already reeling, and now I'm going to ask them to change strategies? And the person who would probably shepherd them into a low block has just been stretchered off the pitch? No. I better stick to the plan." A miscalculation, surely, if very understandable, under the circumstances. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Marka Ragnos

[one_ian_taylor]

19 hours ago, DJBOB said:

We had a stellar defensive record last season with the high line. One result won’t change the way we play. 
 
The problem was with the press intensity (missing Buendia and JJ) more than the philosophy. 

True - but then if you don't  have the right players for the plan, make a change. Tweaking the set up seems to be something Emery is pretty good at, so the second half seems a bit of an anomaly in that sense

[CVByrne]

Thing is if we don't play a high line we can't press opposition properly. Emery is a system coach and if one part doesn't work the system doesn't. 

If we drop the defensive line 10m we are giving the opposition more space to play through us and our press. 

I think we are going to be targeted more now by teams with pace with direct balls. I think losing Mings means our defence as a whole is vulnerable.

So it'll be very interesting to see what we do. I think we'll adapt as best we can and it'll work well against weaker sides. 

I do feel this is a big transition for the club losing two key ever present players from last season means we are forced to players with less time together and less PL experience.

[Leeroy]

Against lesser teams without a lot of pace it's fine, especially at home. Against the top sides in the league away from home it's suicide. I was surprised and a bit concerned Emery didn't change it during the game against Newcastle when it was clear it wasn't working.I think they don't score goals 4 and 5 if we change it before then. 

 

We need to adapt the high line in different games otherwise we could be on the end of another embarrassing scoreline again.

[Leeroy]

21 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Thing is if we don't play a high line we can't press opposition properly. Emery is a system coach and if one part doesn't work the system doesn't. 

If we drop the defensive line 10m we are giving the opposition more space to play through us and our press. 

I think we are going to be targeted more now by teams with pace with direct balls. I think losing Mings means our defence as a whole is vulnerable.

So it'll be very interesting to see what we do. I think we'll adapt as best we can and it'll work well against weaker sides. 

I do feel this is a big transition for the club losing two key ever present players from last season means we are forced to players with less time together and less PL experience.

I hear what you're saying and the injuries are bullsh*t but that means all of the following teams are having transition seasons too:

• Brighton - lost Caicedo, Mac Callister and Sanchez
• Man City - lost Gundogan and Mahrez
• Spurs - lost Kane
• Chelsea - Nkunku their big summer signing out until new year and Fofana out for season, changed their whole squad selling previous key players like Mount, Kante etc
• Liverpool - lost Henderson and Fabinho in midfield 
• Brentford - sold Raya and Toney out until new year
• Palace - lost Zaha and now look like losing Olise too
• West Ham - lost Rice and soon to be Pacqueta 
• Wolves - lost Neves and numerous other players and not really bought anyone

 

Before the injuries to Buendia and Mings I think we were coming into the season in better shape than pretty much every other team except maybe Arsenal. I was genuinely expecting us to be close to top 4/5 this season. Now with those two injuries we've suffered a bit much like those teams listed above have but even so I would still expect us to be easily top 10 and still finishing close to where we did last season. Most teams don't have Pau Torres replacing their injured centre back and with Zaniolo coming in to replace Buendia who by all accounts could be a better player, plus we have Ramsey and Moreno back soon. And the window is still open for us to fix any issues in the team. 

[CVByrne]

20 minutes ago, Leeroy said:

I hear what you're saying and the injuries are bullsh*t but that means all of the following teams are having transition seasons too:

• Brighton - lost Caicedo, Mac Callister and Sanchez
• Man City - lost Gundogan and Mahrez
• Spurs - lost Kane
• Chelsea - Nkunku their big summer signing out until new year and Fofana out for season, changed their whole squad selling previous key players like Mount, Kante etc
• Liverpool - lost Henderson and Fabinho in midfield 
• Brentford - sold Raya and Toney out until new year
• Palace - lost Zaha and now look like losing Olise too
• West Ham - lost Rice and soon to be Pacqueta 
• Wolves - lost Neves and numerous other players and not really bought anyone

 

Before the injuries to Buendia and Mings I think we were coming into the season in better shape than pretty much every other team except maybe Arsenal. I was genuinely expecting us to be close to top 4/5 this season. Now with those two injuries we've suffered a bit much like those teams listed above have but even so I would still expect us to be easily top 10 and still finishing close to where we did last season. Most teams don't have Pau Torres replacing their injured centre back and with Zaniolo coming in to replace Buendia who by all accounts could be a better player, plus we have Ramsey and Moreno back soon. And the window is still open for us to fix any issues in the team. 

I suppose the best way to say this is. High line and our defence as a whole has been very dependent on Mings, his experience, leadership and pace. Torres was brough in because of his progressive passing not his defensive qualities. Mings was going to be near ever present in the PL for us. We now have essentially two new players with no PL experience in Torres and Carlos. While we have a key high line which worked so well last season because of the Mings/Konsa partnership. 

If we start to see continuing issues with our defence due to this then it impacts the entire team and our performances. Other teams didn't have great seasons last year and thus new signings are giving them the optimism. Teams are planning their improvements we had planned our but we have effectively lost our rock which we wanted to build on, our defensive record toward the end of last season was spectacular. That's gone now as Mings is gone. Torres + Konsa for me isn't a partnership that will work as there is no dominant ball winner and will be exposed defensively. This puts Torres and Carlos as our primary partnership this season and it's just a completely new defence with no PL experience. 

My prediction is we will have defensive issues for months until they learn and get it right and get their partnership working correctly. That defensive issue was not the issues coming into the season but it's the issue we face now

Edited August 15, 2023 by CVByrne

[HKP90]

I just hope our training this week includes many sessions of defensive shadow play.

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

Thing is if we don't play a high line we can't press opposition properly. Emery is a system coach and if one part doesn't work the system doesn't. 

If we drop the defensive line 10m we are giving the opposition more space to play through us and our press. 

I think we are going to be targeted more now by teams with pace with direct balls. I think losing Mings means our defence as a whole is vulnerable.

So it'll be very interesting to see what we do. I think we'll adapt as best we can and it'll work well against weaker sides. 

I do feel this is a big transition for the club losing two key ever present players from last season means we are forced to players with less time together and less PL experience.

I agree here that it will take time to get into our stride defensively. 
 
The high line peaked during our undefeated run towards the latter end of the season. That was months after Unai came on. 
 
Prior to that, Unai employed a variety of defenses - one of the more common ones being a low pressure mid block that aimed at preventing the opponents from piling into the box but wasn’t a high press/high line. 
 
I stress that people look to Spurs away last year where it wasn’t even close to a high line. The reverse fixture at home was completely different.  We will adjust but Unai will ocassionally use that high line when he thinks we need to against the opponent. 
 
If it were not for a Konsa error, the game would have remained at 2-1. After 3-1, we were always likely to fall apart looking for a goal to come back but also playing with a very unfamiliar XI. 
 
The game wasn’t lost from the high line. Goal 1 was a cross where multiple players failed their job. Goal 2 was a set piece. Goal 3 was a defender error. Everything after that was elementary. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by DJBOB