The Aston Villa high line thread

[Leeroy]

12 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I suppose the best way to say this is. High line and our defence as a whole has been very dependent on Mings, his experience, leadership and pace. Torres was brough in because of his progressive passing not his defensive qualities. Mings was going to be near ever present in the PL for us. We now have essentially two new players with no PL experience in Torres and Carlos. While we have a key high line which worked so well last season because of the Mings/Konsa partnership. 

If we start to see continuing issues with our defence due to this then it impacts the entire team and our performances. Other teams didn't have great seasons last year and thus new signings are giving them the optimism. Teams are planning their improvements we had planned our but we have effectively lost our rock which we wanted to build on, our defensive record toward the end of last season was spectacular. That's gone now as Mings is gone. Torres + Konsa for me isn't a partnership that will work as there is no dominant ball winner and will be exposed defensively. This puts Torres and Carlos as our primary partnership this season and it's just a completely new defence with no PL experience. 

My prediction is we will have defensive issues for months until they learn and get it right and get their partnership working correctly. That defensive issue was not the issues coming into the season but it's the issue we face now

I think we are just a very self indulgent fanbase. We're not the only team with problems, lots of other teams have problems too, many of them finished in the top half last season. You don't think Brighton losing their entire midfield is worse than our losses? Tottenham losing Kane who scored nearly half their goals last season? Chelsea are a complete joke, they've sold off about £300m worth of players and bought another £300m worth of players. What about Brentford losing their top scorer in Toney and a player who saved them probably at least 10 points last season in Raya? What about Wolves losing the heartbeat of their team in Neves and a top manager in Lopetegui just days before the start of the new season? Those clubs have had it worse than us mate. 

 

We've had a very positive preseason up until the injuries, pretty much everything went right. Now we have had some setbacks we are not in as great a position as we were before, but at the same time we're no worse off than some of those other teams I've mentioned. Plus in most of the cases we have a better manager than those teams who has enough experience to know to deal with setbacks. 

 

Without Mings of course we have to adapt the defence. Or we go into the market and bring in a new defender. But now the bedwetting because Mings is out when most people on here were saying we had the best centre backs outside Man City in the league. From one extreme comment to the other, but then I expect that from our fans. Diego Carlos and Pau Torres were key defenders in Spain for their clubs and conceded on average less than a goal game every season while they were there for clubs finishing in the top 7 (and in Carlos' case Sevilla finished in the top 4 every season he was there). Now they have to step up in a new league and learn quickly. If they can't do that then we should never have been spending £30m on them in the first place. 

[CVByrne]

5 minutes ago, Leeroy said:

I think we are just a very self indulgent fanbase. We're not the only team with problems, lots of other teams have problems too, many of them finished in the top half last season. You don't think Brighton losing their entire midfield is worse than our losses? Tottenham losing Kane who scored nearly half their goals last season? Chelsea are a complete joke, they've sold off about £300m worth of players and bought another £300m worth of players. What about Brentford losing their top scorer in Toney and a player who saved them probably at least 10 points last season in Raya? What about Wolves losing the heartbeat of their team in Neves and a top manager in Lopetegui just days before the start of the new season? Those clubs have had it worse than us mate. 

We've had a very positive preseason up until the injuries, pretty much everything went right. Now we have had some setbacks we are not in as great a position as we were before, but at the same time we're no worse off than some of those other teams I've mentioned. Plus in most of the cases we have a better manager than those teams who has enough experience to know to deal with setbacks. 

Without Mings of course we have to adapt the defence. Or we go into the market and bring in a new defender. But now the bedwetting because Mings is out when most people on here were saying we had the best centre backs outside Man City in the league. From one extreme comment to the other, but then I expect that from our fans. Diego Carlos and Pau Torres were key defenders in Spain for their clubs and conceded on average less than a goal game every season while they were there for clubs finishing in the top 7 (and in Carlos' case Sevilla finished in the top 4 every season he was there). Now they have to step up in a new league and learn quickly. If they can't do that then we should never have been spending £30m on them in the first place. 

You seem to lack understanding of the difference between a club intentioned on selling players for big fees and doing that. To a club planning on two key players being here and then abruptly losing both for the season in a handful of days. Clubs selling players are the clubs choice to do that, they plan for that because they are the ones who decide if a player leaves or not. Brentford lost Toney last season and can plan for the part of this season they don't have him. Chelsea have chosen to sell lots of players on big guaranteed contracts and replace them with new players. Brentford planned to sell Raya and bought a new GK in early June.

Do you understand the difference? We planned to build on our defence from last season. The rock that our run and performances were built on. That is gone now abruptly. We planned on having a key progressive passer and creative player in Buendia in our team and signed others accordingly. That's gone now abruptly. We have lost our defence and our left side. We need to adapt as best we can. Hopefully we will get it all clicking soon but we will lose points because of this and that will cost us positions come end of the season

[Leeroy]

13 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

You seem to lack understanding of the difference between a club intentioned on selling players for big fees and doing that. To a club planning on two key players being here and then abruptly losing both for the season in a handful of days. Clubs selling players are the clubs choice to do that, they plan for that because they are the ones who decide if a player leaves or not. Brentford lost Toney last season and can plan for the part of this season they don't have him. Chelsea have chosen to sell lots of players on big guaranteed contracts and replace them with new players. Brentford planned to sell Raya and bought a new GK in early June.

Do you understand the difference? We planned to build on our defence from last season. The rock that our run and performances were built on. That is gone now abruptly. We planned on having a key progressive passer and creative player in Buendia in our team and signed others accordingly. That's gone now abruptly. We have lost our defence and our left side. We need to adapt as best we can. Hopefully we will get it all clicking soon but we will lose points because of this and that will cost us positions come end of the season

I think the optimism I had before the injuries has been taken away somewhat but I still expect us to be in the top 10 this season. A lot of poor teams in the bottom half who we should be comfortably ahead of.

[CVByrne]

9 minutes ago, Leeroy said:

I think the optimism I had before the injuries has been taken away somewhat but I still expect us to be in the top 10 this season. A lot of poor teams in the bottom half who we should be comfortably ahead of.

I totally agree, we'll be 9th I think because we'll have some defensive issues this half of the season which will cost us points but Emery will get it working with enough games. We'll have a better 2nd half of the season but can't make up the ground. Spurs and Chelsea will leapfrog us from last season and we'll drop to 9th. We'll also switch focus a little towards ECL and strong form in 2nd half of the season could get us the win there and EL next season. 

That's my revised hopes for the season now. I want to be signing the praises of promise in the Torres Carlos partnership come Christmas day. I want to be seeing a quality attacking play that yields goals. I can accept we'll lose games and drop points but I want to see that it's worth it because I like where we are going.

[Leeroy]

18 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I totally agree, we'll be 9th I think because we'll have some defensive issues this half of the season which will cost us points but Emery will get it working with enough games. We'll have a better 2nd half of the season but can't make up the ground. Spurs and Chelsea will leapfrog us from last season and we'll drop to 9th. We'll also switch focus a little towards ECL and strong form in 2nd half of the season could get us the win there and EL next season. 

That's my revised hopes for the season now. I want to be signing the praises of promise in the Torres Carlos partnership come Christmas day. I want to be seeing a quality attacking play that yields goals. I can accept we'll lose games and drop points but I want to see that it's worth it because I like where we are going.

Probably where I'm at too. Around 8th or 9th most likely, although of course I'm hoping for better. A lot will depend on how quickly our centre back partnership flourishes without Mings, if Zaniolo hits the ground running, and if we see any more signings to improve us.

[Marka Ragnos]

16 hours ago, Leeroy said:

I think we are just a very self indulgent fanbase.

What's bothering you precisely? And why? I don't understand.

[Marka Ragnos]

The activity and debate on this thread seems evidence that there's anxiety about how the high line will fare in no-Mings Emeryball, and while I think it's understandable, I do feel a lot of confidence in our defense without Mings learning the system and adapting their play to develop their fluency with it, including building up any particular areas of athleticism they need to build up.

I watched the injury and the build-up to it over and over. Granted, you only get the angles telly coverage offers, but it's illuminating to study. It does highlight the risks of the high line.

There are basically three key moments in the injury sequence: 

1. Trippier (?), threatened by Ollie, long-balls the ball down the right flank towards Isak, a classic "over the top" kick that goes right over Digne's head.
2. Isak, center right, gets chased down by Mings, who shoulder tackles him hard to his left to "clear a space" around the ball.
3. Mings then lurches to the right to catch the still-rolling ball before it goes out of play and tears his ACL in the sudden stopping-change in direction. 

Is there anything to be learned here in the Mings injury sequence? Could it have been prevented? I don't think so, apart from an offsides call on Isak. Still, some thoughts that occur to me ...

1. It's true that Ollie might have been faster and more aggressive about trying prevent the ball clearance that led to the chase (very difficult and potentially costly, too).
2. Digne was doing so much at that moment, filling space between Tonali and Almiron, trying in essence to cover them both. That does just seems like a tall order. Digne seemed both overburdened and somewhat useless at the same time, if that makes sense? Newcastle was able to keep hold of the ball for a long time in the lead-up to the injury, too.
3. Not at all to "victim-blame," but Mings really didn't need to slam his shoulder into Isak as the fast-paced ball looked to be headed to roll out of play -- and it would have been a Villa throw-in or goal kick. I mean, there are good reasons for the tackle attempt, too. I'm merely saying it wasn't necessary in terms of affecting the game.

Definitely more "a series of unfortunate events." I don't know what big lessons can be taken from it other than life sucks sometimes. Ming's chasing down Isak was unquestionably THE cardinal event that led to the injury. T

hese sorts of chase-downs are surely a commonplace risk of high-line play. They're not ideal, are they? Going forward, perhaps we've got to find a way to prevent chase-downs? If we're chasing, we're already behind the run of play, aren't we? 

Anyway, that's my tuppance.

[tinker]

You will never win anything with a high line........

[duke313]

On 15/08/2023 at 09:17, CVByrne said:

I totally agree, we'll be 9th I think because we'll have some defensive issues this half of the season which will cost us points but Emery will get it working with enough games. We'll have a better 2nd half of the season but can't make up the ground. Spurs and Chelsea will leapfrog us from last season and we'll drop to 9th. We'll also switch focus a little towards ECL and strong form in 2nd half of the season could get us the win there and EL next season. 

That's my revised hopes for the season now. I want to be signing the praises of promise in the Torres Carlos partnership come Christmas day. I want to be seeing a quality attacking play that yields goals. I can accept we'll lose games and drop points but I want to see that it's worth it because I like where we are going.

If you think we have defensive issue, wait until I tell you about a team called Tottenham Hotspur.

[duke313]

These guys hit the nail on the head around the 17 min mark.  High line with no press is suicide. 

[UpTheVilla26]

I don't like the high line. 

You are literally leaving nearly half the pitch empty, it takes 1 decent ball into someone with pace and you are stuffed. Even from set pieces, you are so reliant on the offside trap working. 

We have, in the main, very good defenders. Konsa, Carlos & Pau can all defend but aren't blessed with amazing pace. Even our FBs bar Moreno ain't exactly fast. 

Take Mings out the equation, who basically ran the show at the back, and I think it's a very risky thing to carry on with going forward.

I would rather we became a possession based, counter attacking team, as 1 stray pass with the high line and it's shit the bed time. 

[GeordieVillan]

Very interested to see what we do on Sunday! I suspect it will be a high line again with Cash-Konsa-Torres-Digne. So only one change from the back 4 that started at Newcastle.

Any other changes such as bringing in Carlos and/or playing Torres at left back, or playing a low block, will be re-inventing the wheel, don’t think we are at that stage yet.

 

[CVByrne]

I think Emery can see what was a key issue in Newcastle game and fix it. As identified in reviews of the match we had no midfield press working. In our 3-0 win at home to Newcastle we had

Ramsey, Luiz, Dendonker, McGinn and Buendia start. 5 midfielders with defensive workrate

On Saturday we had McGinn (out of position), Luiz and Kamara but had Bailey and Diaby so we swapped the press/workrate off the ball for pace in the counter. 

This meant Newcastle had time on ball in midfield to pick passes over the high line and we were done by close offside decisions for a bunch of the goals. 

Playing McGinn off the left limited his impact, Bailey on the right meant Newcastle would target attacks down that side as Cash was exposed with no help. 

Obviously our gameplan was based off Buendia LM and McGinn RM and for sure that would have been a better press. I think not having JJ/Buendia/Dendonker meant we had to go with that team and have a CM on the bench with Tielemans.

Newcastle are one of the best (or the best) pressing side in the League and the home supper gives them added energy in their workrate. A lot of things came together with injuries forcing team changes (Buendia and Mings), with individual mistakes like Konsa for their 3rd. 

It'll be worked out but I do feel we need Adams to join to give additional energy and cover in Midfield. 

 

[duke313]

4 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I think Emery can see what was a key issue in Newcastle game and fix it. As identified in reviews of the match we had no midfield press working. In our 3-0 win at home to Newcastle we had

Ramsey, Luiz, Dendonker, McGinn and Buendia start. 5 midfielders with defensive workrate

On Saturday we had McGinn (out of position), Luiz and Kamara but had Bailey and Diaby so we swapped the press/workrate off the ball for pace in the counter. 

This meant Newcastle had time on ball in midfield to pick passes over the high line and we were done by close offside decisions for a bunch of the goals. 

Playing McGinn off the left limited his impact, Bailey on the right meant Newcastle would target attacks down that side as Cash was exposed with no help. 

Obviously our gameplan was based off Buendia LM and McGinn RM and for sure that would have been a better press. I think not having JJ/Buendia/Dendonker meant we had to go with that team and have a CM on the bench with Tielemans.

Newcastle are one of the best (or the best) pressing side in the League and the home supper gives them added energy in their workrate. A lot of things came together with injuries forcing team changes (Buendia and Mings), with individual mistakes like Konsa for their 3rd. 

It'll be worked out but I do feel we need Adams to join to give additional energy and cover in Midfield. 

 

This is the bit if confused about with Emery's game plan in that match, if we were going for a more counter style (which we probably should have away at one of the toughest grounds in the league), why did we play such a high line in the first place? 

You're spot on with the press, that right side it was practically non-existent. You can probably get away with the likes of Diaby not pressing, as his talent makes up for it, but both him and Bailey not pressing, it kills the whole game plan.

[CVByrne]

25 minutes ago, duke313 said:

This is the bit if confused about with Emery's game plan in that match, if we were going for a more counter style (which we probably should have away at one of the toughest grounds in the league), why did we play such a high line in the first place? 

You're spot on with the press, that right side it was practically non-existent. You can probably get away with the likes of Diaby not pressing, as his talent makes up for it, but both him and Bailey not pressing, it kills the whole game plan.

The high line is how we operate, the higher the line the more space is condensed and the more effective the press can be as the area of the pitch being played in is compressed. 

If we fail to do the press effectively we are giving opposition more time to pick passes behind our defence. I think we as a system team will always play this way. So the team can learn each game, review the errors and improve game after game.

So the fact we still went with the same game plan but just rejigged the LM and RM positions because we lost Buendia (on top of Ramsey) was expected really. It didn't work and Bailey was taken off so McGinn move back to RM could cover Cash who was being left exposed badly. 

The issues with Saturday were really down to lack of available personnel to do the job. The squad looked light on Saturday. We are missing our left side and Digne doesn't have the pace and ball control to play the system needed. 

If we can make the right signings and get two key players in JJ and Moreno back asap we'll be much better. 

We still are vulnerable defensively now we lost Mings who is an excellent dominant and very fast CB. It's a big worry how our defense operates now without him. 

[duke313]

Match of the Day 2: Aston Villa's high line analysed by Dion Dublin - BBC Sport

The old high line getting a bit of stick from Dion Dublin on MOTD2:

Quote

"Villa's high line, for me, is absolutely ridiculous. Let's get it right, they have been brilliant of late, one of the in-form teams and Unai Emery has done great."

Why is it that these pundits always criticise the high line when we lose, but never praise it when we win? Dion seems oblivious to the fact that the reason we hammered Brighton and West Ham was because of the high line, the reason we've been so good at home is because of the high line.   

[DJBOB]

More boring drivel from pundits. 

Our problem was our lack of ability in the final third and not the high line. Every team that is ahead will be dangerous on the counter. We are no different.

Conceding a goal in the first ten minutes from a low xG, improbable shot (Aina will probably never another goal like it) was our problem.

 

[Bazmonkey]

At home we can get away with it because ,most teams will sit back

Away i would like to see it dropped a bit back....Dublin was right...we are basically giving the oppo's the whole half to play with...its risky...i'd rather be a bit deeper and close that gap between the back line and GK.

Ultimately we are going one way and the oppo are going the other way.....as a starting point fine but we must drop with the ball to make it more effective...rather than hoping for an offside....Martinez can then act as a sweeper keeper...if one gets through..... there was one with digne and zaniolo getting it wrong

Edited November 6, 2023 by Bazmonkey

[Wainy316]

The high line wasn't the issue yesterday.  We caught Forest offside 9 times.

[bobzy]

1 hour ago, DJBOB said:

More boring drivel from pundits. 

Our problem was our lack of ability in the final third and not the high line. Every team that is ahead will be dangerous on the counter. We are no different.

Conceding a goal in the first ten minutes from a low xG, improbable shot (Aina will probably never another goal like it) was our problem.

 

Disagree. It’s OK persisting with the high line - a clear part of how we play - but it was apparent against Forest incredibly early on that they were looking to exploit it (and successfully did). We did absolutely nothing to mitigate their attacks.

We didn’t continue a high line but push Digne/Cash wide and defensive to cover for Elanga (in particular), or aggressively win the ball back in the middle of the pitch. We just let them ping ball after ball behind us. Even some of the offsides weren’t actually offside.