Summer Transfer Window 2022

[Zhan_Zhuang]

1 minute ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I'm not ready to sell Ings either if I'm honest.

If Suarez is incoming surely one goes though?

Watkins is going nowhere!

Unless - Suarez, Watkins, Ings, Archer

Davis on loan?

[duke313]

Just now, Philosopher said:

I see your point however the double pivot is still better than the 8's covering the fullbacks. Whether it's full backs or wing backs, two at CB or 3, fullback are only supposed to overlap one at a time. Both fullback going for the overlap at the same isn't part of the plan the only small exception is (other than when chasing a game) is when switching play from one wing to the other there is a few second where one fullback is flying forward and the other has to retreat (it's in this swictch of the play where keep possession is especially important). If we have Buendia in the team the flank he is on will get decent protect from him too. Also when playing on the front foot and looking to dominate opponents, teams generally only have four players back at the most. 5 players back is conservative, and 6 players back is defensive. 

Also if you play with two wide creator 10's (Coutinho and Buendia) you need runners arround them. So your man in the middle 10 position needs to be playing as a shadow striker (Ramsey would thrive in this role), and your fullback have to overlap to provide the wide 10's with good passing options.

Personally I prefer a 3 with one sitting, with the two 8's taking turns to get in and around the box as this makes the attacking play less predictable, however I like the idea of one of the 8's less inclined to get forward and more focused on ball winning as you don't get the mix up's between the two 8's of when to go and when to stay. Particularly when you expect to have less possession or the opposition is particularly threatening on the counter.

Then Cash almost certainly wouldn't have scored on Sunday, as Digne crossed it for his header.

[Adam2003]

3 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

Whether it's full backs or wing backs, two at CB or 3, fullback are only supposed to overlap one at a time

Wasn’t goals from one fullback switching to the other a key feature of Gerrard’s Rangers team? I thought that was the point of Kamara then being able to drop into a back three with the CBs wider to cover the full backs.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

6 minutes ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

If Suarez is incoming surely one goes though?

Watkins is going nowhere!

Unless - Suarez, Watkins, Ings, Archer

Davis on loan?

You don't miss the old days of going full panic mode and throwing on all the strikers when we are losing ?

Having 4 panic strikers is the dream. Lol

On a serious note though, it's hard for me as I like so many of our players.

I love Keinan as well, I'd possibly argue that, despite the disparity isln " Goal scoring " prowess, Keinan would probably prove more useful for us in the PL ATM, than Archer.

If we play 2 strikers, plus with 5 subs rule, we might possibly be able to use them all.

Edited May 24, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Philosopher]

2 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Then Cash almost certainly wouldn't have scored on Sunday, as Digne crossed it for his header.

Not really as all 3 midfielders were back! Also a cross counts as a crossfield ball.

[MWARLEY2]

If Forest win then he either goes on loan of gets sold to them . 

If Forest lose then i would love him back here.. ings and Coutinho would thrive playing off him as the ball sticks to him these days 

[Zatman]

9 minutes ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

If Suarez is incoming surely one goes though?

Watkins is going nowhere!

Unless - Suarez, Watkins, Ings, Archer

Davis on loan?

Who buys Ings. Will be another loan that we lose money on for a guy who is 5 years older and no guarantee will be a success in a tougher league 

[Philosopher]

2 minutes ago, Adam2003 said:

Wasn’t goals from one fullback switching to the other a key feature of Gerrard’s Rangers team? I thought that was the point of Kamara then being able to drop into a back three with the CBs wider to cover the full backs.

Like i said the only exception to that is when switching the play. If you have two sitting in front of the defense and one is dropping into central defense as soon as possession is lost then cover is there. Also the fullback on the side that the ball is switched from is expected to retreat back. 

[Zhan_Zhuang]

Just now, Zatman said:

Who buys Ings. Will be another loan that we lose money on for a guy who is 5 years older and no guarantee will be a success in a tougher league 

I'm not advocating selling him, he'd have suitors for sure!

A promoted team, Newcastle, Saints, Wet Spam....

[CVByrne]

3 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

I see your point however the double pivot is still better than the 8's covering the fullbacks. Whether it's full backs or wing backs, two at CB or 3, fullback are only supposed to overlap one at a time. Both fullback going for the overlap at the same isn't part of the plan the only small exception is (other than when chasing a game) is when switching play from one wing to the other there is a few second where one fullback is flying forward and the other has to retreat (it's in this swictch of the play where keep possession is especially important). If we have Buendia in the team the flank he is on will get decent protect from him too. Also when playing on the front foot and looking to dominate opponents, teams generally only have four players back at the most. 5 players back is conservative, and 6 players back is defensive. 

Also if you play with two wide creator 10's (Coutinho and Buendia) you need runners arround them. So your man in the middle 10 position needs to be playing as a shadow striker (Ramsey would thrive in this role), and your fullback have to overlap to provide the wide 10's with good passing options.

Personally I prefer a 3 with one sitting, with the two 8's taking turns to get in and around the box as this makes the attacking play less predictable, however I like the idea of one of the 8's less inclined to get forward and more focused on ball winning as you don't get the mix up's between the two 8's of when to go and when to stay. Particularly when you expect to have less possession or the opposition is particularly threatening on the counter.

Only 2 clubs play the ultra attacking full backs in a back 4. Aston Villa and Liverpool. Wing backs are a massive part of Conte and Tuchels success but they are with a back 3 and two 6s.

The full backs in most teams only overlap one at a time because almost every team has wide forwards to provide width. We play no wide forwards and so our full backs are the players to provide width. There is no situation we will play 4 2 3 1 with a double pivot. It's just too far from how we currently play. 

So people will cite hey, what if we play Coutino Ramsey Buendia behind Watkins in a 4 2 3 1. When we would really just play a 4 3 2 1 with the same players and Ramsey given more freedom to get forward and we'd make tweaks to how we play within the same structure. This is why I wish people could take it as a done deal we will always play with a back 4 and always play with a 3 man midfield and think about our signings based on that. 

[Anything11]

It just occurred to me that by all accounts we bid for both JWP and Bissouma in Jan and held to our evaluation which was rejected leading to getting Kamara on a free

Similarly, we went after ESR earlier - bid rejected - ended up with Coutinho in on loan in Jan and then signing for 17m

Both require a bit of luck however it speaks to how well things are being run at the moment

[Zhan_Zhuang]

8 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

You don't miss the old days of going full panic mode and throwing on all the strikers when we are losing ?

Having 4 panic strikers is the dream. Lol

On a serious note though, it's hard for me as I like so many of our players.

I love Keinan as well, I'd possibly argue that, despite the disparity isln " Goal scoring " prowess, Keinan would probably prove more useful for us in the PL ATM, than Archer.

If we play 2 strikers, plus with 5 subs rule, we might possibly be able to use them all.

Yeah then I was thinking after posting perhaps we loan Archer again and use Davis as fourth-choice.

I like him too, he's definitely an option and offers something different to the others even if for his strength alone.

[Zatman]

Just now, Zhan_Zhuang said:

I'm not advocating selling him, he'd have suitors for sure!

A promoted team, Newcastle, Saints, Wet Spam....

I dont think anybody is paying him 100k a week on a 7 goal season. He still has a 3 year contract too

[Tomaszk]

2 minutes ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

I'm not advocating selling him, he'd have suitors for sure!

A promoted team, Newcastle, Saints, Wet Spam....

We shall see.

If we got a bid of £6m I'd be surprised.

[Zhan_Zhuang]

1 minute ago, Zatman said:

I dont think anybody is paying him 100k a week on a 7 goal season. He still has a 3 year contract too

We said the same about Coutinho, there are always ways around it...

[Zatman]

3 minutes ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

We said the same about Coutinho, there are always ways around it...

Of course but this is way different. Coutinho was on a monster contract at a team desperate to get rid 

Ings left his boyhood club for a payday. He has no benefit to take a paycut elsewhere and we have no benefit to take a huge loss in him 

[Zhan_Zhuang]

1 minute ago, Zatman said:

Of course but this is way different. Coutinho was on a monster contract at a team desperate to get rid 

Ings left his boyhood club for a payday. He has no benefit to take a paycut elsewhere and we have no benefit to take a huge loss in him 

It's never as cut and dry as we often think.

If he thinks he won't be getting regular games he will go....

[Hank Scorpio]

Can we have a ban on the phrase "double pivot" where did this shite come from.

[Philosopher]

3 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Only 2 clubs play the ultra attacking full backs in a back 4. Aston Villa and Liverpool. Wing backs are a massive part of Conte and Tuchels success but they are with a back 3 and two 6s.

The full backs in most teams only overlap one at a time because almost every team has wide forwards to provide width. We play no wide forwards and so our full backs are the players to provide width. There is no situation we will play 4 2 3 1 with a double pivot. It's just too far from how we currently play. 

So people will cite hey, what if we play Coutino Ramsey Buendia behind Watkins in a 4 2 3 1. When we would really just play a 4 3 2 1 with the same players and Ramsey given more freedom to get forward and we'd make tweaks to how we play within the same structure. This is why I wish people could take it as a done deal we will always play with a back 4 and always play with a 3 man midfield and think about our signings based on that. 

No is it's not a done deal. Liverpool when both Thaigo and Fabinho play are effectively playing with 2 defensive midfielders (Thaigo as a deep playmaker). Thaigo is not a box to box player. Henderson usually stay deep most of time two. They have a 3 which out of 5 players  (Mane, Salah, Diaz, Jota and Firmino), 4 of whom are inside forwards by trade (one a false 9) not 10's they play higher up pitch from the start and stay narrow. If Salah and Firmino doesn't play then their front 3 all swap positions. If Firmino and Salah play their front 3 is very narrow and the wide forwards are more like the strikers. They don't need the runners from midfield as mush as we do when playing Coutinho and Buendia. Also their fullback are both adept at accurate long balls for their inside forwards to run on to. They brought in Thiago to add a playmaker to the midfield area to add creativity. They defend with a very high line which makes the formation very compact and hard to play through when they lose possession in the opponents defensive third. 

[Made In Aston]

37 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

If it's a 3 man midfield yes. If there is 10 in front of them who is meant to be an attacking player then he cant as he's part of the attack. It's about you shape in attack. Majority of teams operate a 6 /4 or 5 / 5/ Defence / Attack when in possession and attacking opposition half. 

We play a 5 / 5 and are 2 3 5 in attack. With the front 3 and two full backs as part of the attacking 5. City for example have a 2 3 5 also but they have their fullbacks tuck into midfield and their 8s work in half spaces in attack etc..

So if we play a double pivot and keep our 2 full backs always as part of the attack we're a 2 2 6. If we want a 2 3 5 we need to keep one full back from getting too far forward and essentially joining the midfield and the two 6s move left to right depending on which full back is attacking. At no point is the 10 ever in the defensive picture when we are attacking. 

I think playing a 4 2 3 1 with double pivot requires us to have wide forwards to hold the width on one side and a full back on the other. This hinders our success story of the season which is Digne / Cash being excellent in attack. It also means we need wide forwards which is a big departure from our transfer strategy. For this reason we'll always play with a 3 man central midfield in every game with one or two 10s ahead of them. 

It's why a Bissouma joining for example works alongside Kamara. They both can play in that 3 man midfield

I'd like to see 4 x defenders, 2 xCDM, 1x MC, 2xACM(who can go wide as need be) and 1xST. Bissouma or someone similar would be vital in this set up.