Steven Gerrard

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, El Segundo said:

Last season's games and the whole of Gerrard's reign are a much stronger indicator of whether we are in danger of relegation than the 6 games this season taken in isolation.  38 points might well be enough to stay up, but the points per game trend has been downwards, so we won't even achieve a point per game moving forward if that continues.  Who's to say a new manager could turn it around?  You said yourself there is a risk a new guy  won't' work out. That risk is the same whether we get a new manager now or in 6 weeks time, but at least if we recruit now and it doesn't work out we would still have more time to change things again.

I also agree the squad is better than the performances but that is irrelevant - it's the actual results that count. 

You don't want the club to waste 10 months investment in the Manager.  So far there is little or no return on that investment - it's already been wasted.  For me there is a much greater risk we will lose our PL status costing us tens if not hundreds of millions in future revenue.  We could live to regret sacking him.  We could live to regret keeping him.  Which one involves the greater risk?

I just don't see why, after 32 games and 9 months, you think Gerrard might suddenly turn into Arteta or Potter over the next 5 or 6 weeks when there has been absolutely no indication that he is capable of that.  We will have simply wasted another 5-6 weeks and have a much harder job of protecting our status and revenue streams. 

For reference, this is the PPG trend. We're dipping dangerously close to that 1ppg mark. In fact, after his excellent start of 4 wins from his first 6 games, we've literally been at exactly 1ppg since (28 points from 28 games).

[paul514]

4 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

For reference, this is the PPG trend. We're dipping dangerously close to that 1ppg mark. In fact, after his excellent start of 4 wins from his first 6 games, we've literally been at exactly 1ppg since (28 points from 28 games).

Which is exactly what should be looked at it is no where near good enough. We should be realistically looking at 60 points and he is achieving 22 less than that.

[Zatman]

Just now, Keyblade said:

He's shown he can learn before (that first 3 game losing streak in 2022, he then went on and won 4 straight), so hopefully he can do it again. Instinct tells me he'll return to type on Saturday but I think he understands the stakes now and his comments about shelving the pretty football seem to indicate he'll keep it like this for at least a while.

I tell you what is worrying. I have seen very little pretty football during his reign so thats a red flag.

Alex McLeish played better football

[KentVillan]

5 minutes ago, Zatman said:

I think for me City was a free hit..You say he has learned I hope he has but I think is a 95% chance Luiz and Bailey dropped for Leicester and he goes with his regular crap system

Well this is where I reserve judgment for now. If he tinkers with the side again and reverts to "his system" or whatever he calls it, then I will be concerned.

If he takes on board the obvious facts that:

• Watkins looks so much more comfortable as the striker in a front 3
• Luiz and Kamara playing together makes us much tidier in possession, and positionally / defensively
• Playing 2 wingers (even if one of them is Ramsey) gives us more natural width
• McGinn shouldn't be getting 90 mins

...and applies those lessons to the coming matches, then I'm willing to give him more time.

It is very much a question of whether we trust Gerrard's ability to learn, adapt, reflect, and so on. I think he's shown that our fears about losing the dressing room are probably wrong.

In my view, the thing that has really harmed both Smith and Gerrard has been trying to shoehorn these slow, technical, 10 / support striker type players into the side (Buendia, Ings, Coutinho) and it's noticeable how much better we look when we just bench all of them. They're all good players, but I think the rest of our squad was built around variations of 4-3-3, and it was almost like a weight had been lifted off everyone's chests when they could play their natural game.

I reckon Bailey had been lined up before the Grealish move was confirmed, and was a natural upgrade on what we had (Traore). Whereas Ings and Buendia were panic signings to cover for Grealish going, and then Coutinho was a similar roll of the dice because of the personal connection.

If you look back at the last few seasons, I think it's clear that some players have been signed with a specific purpose in mind (Watkins, Kamara, all the defenders), and others have been signed just because they were good players and available at a fair price. Gerrard being inexperienced, and Smith perhaps lacking confidence handling a more expensive squad, in both cases I think they felt pressure to start the expensive signings, even when it didn't make tactical sense.

It may be that Gerrard has now learnt that the price tag is irrelevant, and you need to just go with who is performing for you and delivering results.

[Keyblade]

3 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Well this is where I reserve judgment for now. If he tinkers with the side again and reverts to "his system" or whatever he calls it, then I will be concerned.

If he takes on board the obvious facts that:

• Watkins looks so much more comfortable as the striker in a front 3
• Luiz and Kamara playing together makes us much tidier in possession, and positionally / defensively
• Playing 2 wingers (even if one of them is Ramsey) gives us more natural width
• McGinn shouldn't be getting 90 mins

...and applies those lessons to the coming matches, then I'm willing to give him more time.

It is very much a question of whether we trust Gerrard's ability to learn, adapt, reflect, and so on. I think he's shown that our fears about losing the dressing room are probably wrong.

In my view, the thing that has really harmed both Smith and Gerrard has been trying to shoehorn these slow, technical, 10 / support striker type players into the side (Buendia, Ings, Coutinho) and it's noticeable how much better we look when we just bench all of them. They're all good players, but I think the rest of our squad was built around variations of 4-3-3, and it was almost like a weight had been lifted off everyone's chests when they could play their natural game.

I reckon Bailey had been lined up before the Grealish move was confirmed, and was a natural upgrade on what we had (Traore). Whereas Ings and Buendia were panic signings to cover for Grealish going, and then Coutinho was a similar roll of the dice because of the personal connection.

If you look back at the last few seasons, I think it's clear that some players have been signed with a specific purpose in mind (Watkins, Kamara, all the defenders), and others have been signed just because they were good players and available at a fair price. Gerrard being inexperienced, and Smith perhaps lacking confidence handling a more expensive squad, in both cases I think they felt pressure to start the expensive signings, even when it didn't make tactical sense.

It may be that Gerrard has now learnt that the price tag is irrelevant, and you need to just go with who is performing for you and delivering results.

This is where I am as well. The dilemma I have is, even if he gets all of this right...I'm not sure it's good enough to get us where we want to be. Yes we won't be relegation fodder anymore, but I doubt we'll really be threatening the top half.

[KentVillan]

3 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

This is where I am as well. The dilemma I have is, even if he gets all of this right...I'm not sure it's good enough to get us where we want to be. Yes we won't be relegation fodder anymore, but I doubt we'll really be threatening the top half.

It's difficult isn't it. The three scenarios seem to be:

1. We flirt with relegation all season, Gerrard gets sacked during season or at end of season. We've wasted at least a whole season, probably lose some key players, but hopefully have a good new manager.
2. Gerrard gets us up to somewhere like 11th/12th/13th - now the club have a really hard time deciding whether to replace him. He and his supporters will be convinced he can take that form into next season and finish top 7. His detractors will say we are just treading water now. We'll probably lose some key players to clubs that play in Europe.
3. Gerrard turns out to be inspired after the slow start and we finish top half, and he definitely gets another season. Villa Park is bouncing.

I think that middle scenario is the most likely, and then the debate will just keep raging on. Not quite bad enough to get sacked, but not good enough to really take us to where we want to be. Carra and Shearer will insist he's doing an amazing job. This thread has turned into all out war. Etc.

[Anything11]

Reasonable debate here? In this thread?

A welcome change.

 

[Mister_a]

If he goes straight back to his ridiculous tactics after the Man City game, then he can do one.

If he has learned that his tactics were crap and not working then he gets a little more time.

If he continues doing what he has been doing before the Man City game (crap tactics, favourites always playing, 0.3xg bore fests) then he can get a taxi to whatever sunny destination he chooses.

[AshVilla]

"Lets give him another 5 games" is the new "He just needs a preseason"

I don't buy it at all you can't run or manage a club like that.

It's simple If he isn't up for the job he should be replaced.

 

 

 

[weedman]

16 minutes ago, AshVilla said:

"Lets give him another 5 games" is the new "He just needs a preseason"

I don't buy it at all you can't run or manage a club like that.

It's simple If he isn't up for the job he should be replaced.

 

 

 

He's getting to the international break whether we like it or not. If (and its a big if) we win the next 2 games and play well then suddenly his start doesn't look quite as bad (still not good). That's when we can look and see where we are once the dust has settled a bit on the season by the time the world Cup rolls around which is a far better opportunity to be sacking and replacing a manager if he's underperforming. 

If we underperform and get anything less than 4 points from the next 2 then we can sack during this little break, although it would be far easier and far more stable if he can keep us ticking over until the world Cup before we replace him or, pie in the sky, if he actually can turn it around and make a success of us. 

Then we can all argue endlessly about whether he's still rubbish but lucked into a system or if he's the 2nd coming of Fergie, almost hope he fails just to avoid that! 

[Rightdm00]

10 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Yeah "panic" probably the wrong word - just a bit ill conceived. We thought we were getting a versatile winger / 10 (Smith said so at the time), but he's just not very good on the wing IMO. So he hasn't turned out to be a replacement for Grealish at all.

I think Buendia, Coutinho, Chukwuemeka (last season), and arguably Ings all want to play in the same bit of the pitch. Hovering around the D, linking up in the attacking third, playing fairly centrally, with pace moving around them.

So both Smith and Gerrard have been working with expensive, but unbalanced squads. I don't think it was so much that Smith relied on Grealish, but that we didn't really replace that position. Similarly with Gerrard, I don't think the "narrowness" of his teams is entirely his own fault. It's noticeable that he's solved it by playing someone (Ramsey) out of position, which hints at the problems.

Anyway, this is turning into a chat about shape. My point re Gerrard is he may come to realise that some of his expensive players can't play together, and he just has to go with what offers natural shape and solidity. It's the same dilemma a lot of recent Man Utd managers have had, and Ten Hag has come in with the confidence and experience to bench expensive players who aren't working.

Steven has had 2 windows. If he was desperate for a left winger he could have purchased one by now. Ramsey ended up on the wing out of desperation. It's not even where he should be playing. Ramsey is our biggest goal threat from midfield. He should be the furthest advanced midfielder, in and around the box. Out on the wing you nullify his greatest skill. 

For me, this all looks to similar. Steven just throwing things against wall and waiting to see what magically works out. More square pegs in round holes for me. As long as he keeps doing that then this squad will continue to underachieve. 

[Ingram85]

The fact he thinks we were playing pretty football prior to the Man City match is truly terrifying. Delusional even. It’s as bad if not worse than under McLeish and Bruce. It’s been dour. He thinks it was pretty and needs shelving lol. Jesus wept. 

[Laughable Chimp]

He'll change. Give him another chance

[romavillan]

Well if we needed confirmation that we are unfortunately living in a post truth era where people can just say any old bollocks and pretend it's true (see Putin, Trump, Farage etc.) then this "pretty football" is it. We have looked disjointed and just awful for a very long time. We last played truly pretty football under Smith.

[Vive_La_Villa]

12 hours ago, KentVillan said:

It's difficult isn't it. The three scenarios seem to be:

1. We flirt with relegation all season, Gerrard gets sacked during season or at end of season. We've wasted at least a whole season, probably lose some key players, but hopefully have a good new manager.
2. Gerrard gets us up to somewhere like 11th/12th/13th - now the club have a really hard time deciding whether to replace him. He and his supporters will be convinced he can take that form into next season and finish top 7. His detractors will say we are just treading water now. We'll probably lose some key players to clubs that play in Europe.
3. Gerrard turns out to be inspired after the slow start and we finish top half, and he definitely gets another season. Villa Park is bouncing.

I think that middle scenario is the most likely, and then the debate will just keep raging on. Not quite bad enough to get sacked, but not good enough to really take us to where we want to be. Carra and Shearer will insist he's doing an amazing job. This thread has turned into all out war. Etc.

I think there’s a 4 and 5.

4. He gets sacked in the next few weeks and the new manager comes in and finishes the season strong. Think Eddie Howe.

5. He gets sacked in the next few weeks and the new manager comes in and is some how even worse! Think Remi Garde. (Although that squad was poison). 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

12 hours ago, KentVillan said:

It's difficult isn't it. The three scenarios seem to be:

1. We flirt with relegation all season, Gerrard gets sacked during season or at end of season. We've wasted at least a whole season, probably lose some key players, but hopefully have a good new manager.
2. Gerrard gets us up to somewhere like 11th/12th/13th - now the club have a really hard time deciding whether to replace him. He and his supporters will be convinced he can take that form into next season and finish top 7. His detractors will say we are just treading water now. We'll probably lose some key players to clubs that play in Europe.
3. Gerrard turns out to be inspired after the slow start and we finish top half, and he definitely gets another season. Villa Park is bouncing.

I think that middle scenario is the most likely, and then the debate will just keep raging on. Not quite bad enough to get sacked, but not good enough to really take us to where we want to be. Carra and Shearer will insist he's doing an amazing job. This thread has turned into all out war. Etc.

Good food for thought.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I think there’s a 4 and 5.

4. He gets sacked in the next few weeks and the new manager comes in and finishes the season strong. Think Eddie Howe.

5. He gets sacked in the next few weeks and the new manager comes in and is some how even worse! Think Remi Garde. (Although that squad was poison). 

Also good food for thought...

[nick76]

2 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Also good food for thought...

3 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Good food for thought.

Are you hungry?

Edited September 6, 2022 by nick76

[PussEKatt]

For me,Gerrard should go NOW.

He has had more than enough games/time.He has said ( countless times ) that we are in a good place,that we have had a good pre-seasonHe has had 2 transfer windows and bought 5/6 players and after ALL THAT we get 3 points from 5 games,as for the Man $ity game.Last season we would have beaten them if Gerrard had not bought Nakamba on with half an hour to go when we were leading.So,from throwing away results last season to not winning this season,what exactly are people expecting him to do ?In the next 5 games we should be looking for 4 wins mininum.Otherwise ( at his rate of progress ) we will need 5 years for him to get it right.FFS.

[HeyAnty]

On 31/08/2022 at 09:52, HeyAnty said:

That’s why I’d pull the pin now.  Don’t give him the chance to pull a cabbage head result out of the bag and them limp on for another 6 or 7 games

I called it. Based on City game this is now happening.  Should have been chopped before Arsenal instead of two free swings.