Peter Griffin Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 17 minutes ago, Jonesy7211 said: Shouldn't punish the clubs for bad owners, all of this could be stopped by not allowing owners to leverage debt against a club. If owners want to invest, let them, but the debt should be theirs and not the club's. Bad owners, along with agents, are killing clubs. It is a difficult one. On one hand the clubs are businesses and the EFL or anyone else can't interfere on the running of a business. They do try with fit and proper owner checking and FFP/P&S should force the club to live within its means. In the case of DCFC they broke the FFP rules, if they had complied with FFP they would probably not be in this mess. A further complication was the loophole of selling the stadium to cover up FFP losses. DCFC did this but this loophole has now been closed too. It was a benefit for AVFC as we got promoted and have wealthy owners that invested money as equity and not as debt. But DCFC are up to their neck in it and the fact that the club no longer owns its stadium puts it in even greater peril. I suspect that Morris is exploiting the points deduction for FFP breaches to enter admin. Its a bit like changing the water pump when u change the timing belt. The EFL has the ability to cancel the -9 point FFP deduction if new owners come in. So it makes sense to take the -12 rather than the -9 and have the club in admin which would make it a much much more attractive purchase for an investor. It is high risk but when your back is against the wall you will try anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, rjw63 said: Yes, and take 3 points off small heath. It would effectively give Baggies 2 points if they go out of business Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesy7211 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 38 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: It is a difficult one. On one hand the clubs are businesses and the EFL or anyone else can't interfere on the running of a business. They do try with fit and proper owner checking and FFP/P&S should force the club to live within its means. In the case of DCFC they broke the FFP rules, if they had complied with FFP they would probably not be in this mess. A further complication was the loophole of selling the stadium to cover up FFP losses. DCFC did this but this loophole has now been closed too. It was a benefit for AVFC as we got promoted and have wealthy owners that invested money as equity and not as debt. But DCFC are up to their neck in it and the fact that the club no longer owns its stadium puts it in even greater peril. I suspect that Morris is exploiting the points deduction for FFP breaches to enter admin. Its a bit like changing the water pump when u change the timing belt. The EFL has the ability to cancel the -9 point FFP deduction if new owners come in. So it makes sense to take the -12 rather than the -9 and have the club in admin which would make it a much much more attractive purchase for an investor. It is high risk but when your back is against the wall you will try anything I disagree about clubs being businesses. They're more than that. I don't feel the same about Sainsbury's or HSBC as I do Aston Villa. Football as an entity globally is unique, and often what each club means to us individually is also unique. Because of their historical and current importance to individuals, groups of fans, regionally, and in some cases nationally, clubs should be better insulated against poor ownership. And the best way I can see that is to not allow debt to be leveraged against a club. FFP is a mockery and only stops clubs getting in the boys club at the top of the game. It's created a closed shop in Europe, the top of the premier league, and even between the premier league and championship. It doesn't stop clubs like Derby running aground. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czarnikjak Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Jonesy7211 said: Shouldn't punish the clubs for bad owners, all of this could be stopped by not allowing owners to leverage debt against a club. If owners want to invest, let them, but the debt should be theirs and not the club's. Bad owners, along with agents, are killing clubs. Mel Morris didn't leverage debt against the club. He kept putting in his own money (more then he was permitted under ffp) until he couldn't/wouldn't any more. Although I agree with your general point, stopping it wouldn't fix all the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 There’s nothing you can do to stop it. Any solution offered will just move the problem but it’s not gonna stop shitty owners. Football can’t support the number of clubs he currently does because more and more money is being skimmed off at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenfly Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 On 17/09/2021 at 10:08, Peter Griffin said: I don't think NSWE would have bought us if we were in the PL. The bought us a few hours before defaulting on a tax bill and going into administration soon after losing the playoff final. That is when AVFC was at its most vulnerable and at a very low valuation considering the assets that were up for grabs. That is not NSWE having a love for Villa, that is NSWE having an eye for a bargain We were incredibly lucky they both happened to be looking for a football club to buy at that exact moment. When a club with PL pedigree, rich history, PL quality infrastructure already in place, a global fanbase, a solid foundation to build upon and, at the time, a potential megastar on the books to catapult the club forward, all available at a knockdown price, who could possibly turn that down? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 Shame this happens to a club that won 2 league titles in the 70s, European cup semi-finalist. Wonder how greats like Alan Hinton, Kevin Hectar and Roy Macfarland must feel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Czarnikjak said: Mel Morris didn't leverage debt against the club. He kept putting in his own money (more then he was permitted under ffp) until he couldn't/wouldn't any more. However, what is not clear yet as they have published accounts is quite a while is if the money Mel put into the club was in the form of debt or equity and if debt i.e. a loan from Mel to DCFC was the debt secured against the club's assets. If it has been a Mel gets paid off by the administrators then the fans will not be a happy bunch. We are so lucky with NSWE as all of the cash they put in to date has been equity and AVFC doesn't owe them any money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czarnikjak Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Peter Griffin said: However, what is not clear yet as they have published accounts is quite a while is if the money Mel put into the club was in the form of debt or equity and if debt i.e. a loan from Mel to DCFC was the debt secured against the club's assets. If it has been a Mel gets paid off by the administrators then the fans will not be a happy bunch. We are so lucky with NSWE as all of the cash they put in to date has been equity and AVFC doesn't owe them any money. All valid points Peter, we don’t know the whole picture as Derby have not published accounts since 17/18 season. They were due to publish them in August as part of the agreement with EFL, not sure how administration would affect that. What we do know: 1. Mels takeover wasn’t one of those leveraged buyouts ( like Man Utd or Burnley) where buyer effectively buys the club for money borrowed in clubs name. He actually paid for the club without saddling it with debt. 2. Up until 17/18 the club was virtually debt free, With all the debt under Mel and his holding company : Something went horribly wrong since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 4 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said: All valid points Peter, we don’t know the whole picture as Derby have not published accounts since 17/18 season. They were due to publish them in August as part of the agreement with EFL, not sure how administration would affect that. What we do know: 1. Mels takeover wasn’t one of those leveraged buyouts ( like Man Utd or Burnley) where buyer effectively buys the club for money borrowed in clubs name. He actually paid for the club without saddling it with debt. 2. Up until 17/18 the club was virtually debt free, With all the debt under Mel and his holding company : Something went horribly wrong since. The 50m in debt is a huge concern and who this is owed to and what it is secured against. And that doesn't even include new debt for the last few years. If Mel has gambled the club on debt that is owed to him and then puts the club in admin to recover X pence in the £, that will be a horrible thing to do and fans will be rightly peed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czarnikjak Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: The 50m in debt is a huge concern and who this is owed to and what it is secured against. And that doesn't even include new debt for the last few years. If Mel has gambled the club on debt that is owed to him and then puts the club in admin to recover X pence in the £, that will be a horrible thing to do and fans will be rightly peed off. It's owed to MSD and secured against the stadium owned now by the holding company (or one of the other subsidiaries). What happend i think is that Mel took a loan from MSD to buy the stadium from the club. So the club itself is not in debt, but it doesn't own the stadium anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robby b Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 I feel especially bad for Derby as we beat them in the playoff final. If they'd won it, the 'richest game in football', I guess they probably wouldn't be entering administraton now. Their fans must have thought about how different things would have been, if only they'd won that huge match. :s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 I don’t feel at all bad for winning the playoff game against them, had we lost it would likely be us in administration and with a massive points deduction. If they are hit with the 21 point deduction and if Rooney somehow keeps them up that would be a huge achievement, though I expect they’ll have to firesale any players they have with any kind of value in the January window. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robby b Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 Even if they just get the 12 points reduction that puts them on minus two as things stand! Just as well they've won a few games already, which gives them a slight chance of staying up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted September 19, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) On 18/09/2021 at 14:38, Czarnikjak said: Something went horribly wrong since. Edited September 19, 2021 by sidcow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czarnikjak Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 I believe that Mel had good intentions, he did invest over £200m of his own money ( bending the ffp rules on the way) to get them into Premier League, but ultimately failed. He kept loosing money at a rate he couldn’t/wouldn’t sustain anymore and had to sell. Tried to sell the club, but no suitable buyer could be found due to ongoing litigations with EFL and COVID. In the end, administration might be the only way for someone to buy the club and move forward. Sad story, but Derby will recover and find their feet again under new ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted September 22, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted September 22, 2021 Just gone into administration...12 points means they won't be going back to Wembley this year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bobzy Posted September 22, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted September 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Nigel said: Just gone into administration...12 points means they won't be going back to Wembley this year! And there's still more punishment to come for their creative accounting practices. Meanwhile, Manchester United have a debt in excess of £443m, wanted to join a breakaway European Super League and sit happily near the top of the Premier League, with a season of CL football to look forward to as well. Football is great. 11 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Silvers Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 14 minutes ago, bobzy said: And there's still more punishment to come for their creative accounting practices. Meanwhile, Manchester United have a debt in excess of £443m, wanted to join a breakaway European Super League and sit happily near the top of the Premier League, with a season of CL football to look forward to as well. Football is great. The game needs shoving up the games arse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pas5898 Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 Who is going to buy Derby? 50-80million in debt, they don't own their ground and about to go to league 1. Talking 200-250million just to get started. They aren't a massive club, potential suitors would look at Sunderland, Portsmouth, Ipswich etc first. Going to have to be a tough few years for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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