CVByrne Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 19 hours ago, Farlz said: I don't understand the narrow systems. The idea is to progress the ball from the back through the middle with quick passing and for the front 3 to have good interplay to create shooting chances from central positions which have the highest xG. The full backs are to push high and wide to give the width which stretches the back four of the opposition creating more space centrally for the two 10s and CF to create chances. Late runs from the 8s too for shots etc.. That is what the narrow system is meant to do, it relies heavily on the full backs and the front 3 in attack. It has a big reliance of the passing skills of the CBs and midfield 3 to progress the ball forward to the 10s. This is where it breaks down for us. McGinn, Ramsey, Konsa and Mings are not skilled enough passers of the ball to level required for this to succeed on a regular basis. It is also hampered by the fact with no width from the forwards there are no direct passing options from defence to attack so opposition can press higher up the field further limiting space. (this is what Arsenal did yesterday). The 10s drop deep to try get on the ball instead of making runs into the wide channels. Inferior teams don't press us high but pack the midfield in a low block again congesting the area to cut off the room and passes into the 10s. Newcastle and Watford did this to us. I think the players on the pitch are too focussed on implementing the system that is drilled into them that they aren't adapting to find the space, Coutinho and Buendia needed to move wider and give passing options that bypassed midfield. I think Gerrard got frustrated that the players didn't try solve the problems themselves on the pitch. Now if we pushed our 10s wide we reduce the bodies in midfield and that makes us less defensively solid. Despite losing yesterday we were defensively solid, their goal was a hit and hope through a wall of bodies that didn't hit anyone and made it through. The lack of some steel and energy in midfield is a persistent problem for us that hopefully is solved in summer. This might allow us to fully ditch the narrow 10s formation. If a Bissouma was signed and Luiz moved to 8 we now significantly improve the passing ability and defensive ability of our midfield. Add in a Gomez to CB and sell Konsa and we now have a big step change in passing ability from the back. Edited March 20, 2022 by CVByrne 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaParkAvenue Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 11 minutes ago, hippo said: Who doesn't ? It's probably one of the most exciting sights to see a wide player beat a full back ? - who wouldn't want to see that ? Another problem is most of our wide players prefer the right… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, DJ_Villain said: I don’t know why Gerrard doesn’t do what I do… Save the game before the match and if you don’t get the result you want, reload it… He switched to a 4 3 3 in 2nd half with Coutinho in left side of midfield 3 and Bailey / Traore wide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 Does anybody see the narrow formation working ? Irrespective of who the manager is . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 7 minutes ago, hippo said: Does anybody see the narrow formation working ? Irrespective of who the manager is . Yes in a 4 4 2 diamond / 4 3 1 2 formation with the right two CFs that narrow formation can work as we have forwards to run the channels. The rigid way we play 4 3 2 1 I can't see working for anyone as it's too easy to counter. The 10s need to create width at times there and stop being so central. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted March 20, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 20, 2022 1 hour ago, sne said: Will never happen but I'd be interested to see how this 11 would perform. Ings Bailey Coutinho Buendia Luiz Sanson Digne Mings Konsa Cash Martinez It's such an obvious thing to try I don't understand how we haven't seen that formation yet. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 54 minutes ago, hippo said: Does anybody see the narrow formation working ? Irrespective of who the manager is . Not against the better teams no. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's Your Round Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 I’m all for having a distinct way of playing and drilling the players to learn that way and perfect it. But there also comes a time when you realise that we don’t have the players to master that way of playing, surely then it’s best to pick a system that gets the best from what you’ve got? Or maybe not? There is some sense in playing this system until the end of the season to see who can cut it. Gerrard will know what’s salvageable from the squad and then look to bring his own choices in. That’s fine but I can’t help but think this squad is capable of much more than they’re showing right now. It’s a lot of money spent that might end up wasted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 2 hours ago, sne said: No for me we are about where I expect us to be. Does feel like the gap in quality and performances between us and the good-ish teams is a bit bigger than I hoped it would be. Honestly think we are not even close. Work in progress, maybe we are moving in the right direction. Jury still out for me. You are right - the gap to the top teams is immense. It feels almost impossible to get there, which is disheartening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Xela said: You are right - the gap to the top teams is immense. It feels almost impossible to get there, which is disheartening. And even to the clubs below the top like Spurs, Arsenal and Man U the gap feels massive. We might play tight games against them but over a whole season we are miles behind unless they mess up on a monumental scale. Spurs & Man U have a season in which they have sacked their manager (like us) and are 12-14 points ahead still and no doubt this will grow to something like 20 before the season is over. Glass half full I guess we can take heart in that we are temporarily ahead of Leicester which I didn't expect. They have 3 games in hand thou. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJCB Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 1 hour ago, CVByrne said: The idea is to progress the ball from the back through the middle with quick passing and for the front 3 to have good interplay to create shooting chances from central positions which have the highest xG. The full backs are to push high and wide to give the width which stretches the back four of the opposition creating more space centrally for the two 10s and CF to create chances. Late runs from the 8s too for shots etc.. That is what the narrow system is meant to do, it relies heavily on the full backs and the front 3 in attack. It has a big reliance of the passing skills of the CBs and midfield 3 to progress the ball forward to the 10s. This is where it breaks down for us. McGinn, Ramsey, Konsa and Mings are not skilled enough passers of the ball to level required for this to succeed on a regular basis. It is also hampered by the fact with no width from the forwards there are no direct passing options from defence to attack so opposition can press higher up the field further limiting space. (this is what Arsenal did yesterday). The 10s drop deep to try get on the ball instead of making runs into the wide channels. Inferior teams don't press us high but pack the midfield in a low block again congesting the area to cut off the room and passes into the 10s. Newcastle and Watford did this to us. I think the players on the pitch are too focussed on implementing the system that is drilled into them that they aren't adapting to find the space, Coutinho and Buendia needed to move wider and give passing options that bypassed midfield. I think Gerrard got frustrated that the players didn't try solve the problems themselves on the pitch. Now if we pushed our 10s wide we reduce the bodies in midfield and that makes us less defensively solid. Despite losing yesterday we were defensively solid, their goal was a hit and hope through a wall of bodies that didn't hit anyone and made it through. The lack of some steel and energy in midfield is a persistent problem for us that hopefully is solved in summer. This might allow us to fully ditch the narrow 10s formation. If a Bissouma was signed and Luiz moved to 8 we now significantly improve the passing ability and defensive ability of our midfield. Add in a Gomez to CB and sell Konsa and we now have a big step change in passing ability from the back. Good summary. For an example of the type of central midfielders we need to fit the narrow system we should look at Liverpool who operate the CMs in a very similar way. Their front three operate differently to how we play- they play a false nine with two reasonably narrow but much more direct pacey winger/number 10s (salah and mane). But they rely a lot on fullbacks for width and their CMs fit around that. They all tend to be super high energy tenacious players- Henderson, Keita, Milner, ox- whose job is to win the ball quickly and pass on to other players who are tasked with providing the creativity. Thiago maybe a counter example but not sure he fits that well in their system so maybe he’s a case in point. That high energy style CM is what we should be targeting this summer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 So far this season, there are a couple of players who's presence in the team tends to correlate highly with the team performing well compared to when they're not in the team. These are the players I think should be in the starting 11 at every opportunity. They are: Douglas Luiz Jacob Ramsey Philippe Coutinho Lucas Digne Callum Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 10 hours ago, GingerCollins29 said: Massively disrespectful if he's referring to lack of support from the owners He's not wrong though is he? We're a good £200m+ off arsenal and that's 3 or 4 players at huge value not 10x £20m players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 I think his 4 3 2 1 formation is flawed and I hope he can move away from it as the evidence mounts. A return to the 4 3 1 2 now, or using a player like Bailey in a hybrid role of 2 1 or 1 2 with Watkins up top. I would like it if Sanson could be given a chance too in place of McGinn or Ramsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacketspuds Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 I think Watkins is part of the problem for Gerrard. If he wants to play possession football I don't see the point of needing a player that charges down opposition defenders as that implies that we don't actually have the ball at the time. We have to stop the long balls forward for Watkins to pressurise opponents, and actually try to work the ball into dangerous positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCollins29 Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 2 hours ago, villa4europe said: He's not wrong though is he? We're a good £200m+ off arsenal and that's 3 or 4 players at huge value not 10x £20m players So the owners haven't backed their managers? Without NSWE this club is no more. Have a bit of respect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, GingerCollins29 said: So the owners haven't backed their managers? Without NSWE this club is no more. Have a bit of respect But that's not what he said and neither did i He said that closing the gap needs backing from above, which it does, it needs a lot more money, that's not a criticism its a fact If you want to read it wrong thats up to you He also said it needs hard work, I don't see anyone jumping up and down suggesting we haven't done any hard work to get to here, it just needs more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) I am picking out, just 1 observation from Saturdays game. When Saka was on the ball moving down their right moving towards the box.....our players stood off and allowed him the space, to dribble.....now I accept that he is a fine,fine player. When Bailey came on for us moving down our left, he was closed down, way before he had time or intent to get in to the box or get on a dribble. We stood off them far too much, and failed to put them under pressure.......you do that and you are handing them the initiative and do that and anything can happen.....you lose control. Edited March 21, 2022 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 18 minutes ago, useless said: The reason McGInn always plays is for the same reason he always played when Smith was manager, we currently have no better options. Also he isn't actually that bad, maybe someon we will need to replace as a starter if we're to challenge top six or four, but still more than good enough for a midtable side and good enough to be part of the squad going forward. Nobody is saying drop McGinn and never play him again. Our season is over, try other players and options. Also give him a kick up the arse Chambers or Iroegbunam can play in front of the defence and move Luiz to McGinn position or start Sanson or Chuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 42 minutes ago, MaVilla said: Wow.................If anything, I though we was lacking in aggression. Saka is a great player.....but was playing the diva on Saturday. I also thought, he could have avoided that challenge from Mings......Mings got to the ball first, and couldn't alter his path.....Saka engineered that IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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