General officiating/rules

[UpTheVilla26]

I turned the final off the other night. 

I can't sit and enjoy a game when everytime there was contact, everyone starts waving imaginery yellow cards, it was absolutely pathetic. 

The behaviour of Mourinho and his staff needs punishing. They helped fuel this. 

Refs are frustrating because they do make shit decisions far too often. Countless times we've all watched Villa and moaned about how poor the ref is. Saying that, he did - from the 30-40mins I stomached - have a impossible task due to the behaviour, mainly, of the Roma staff and players. 

What followed at the airport was disgusting. Italian fans seem to be notorious for wanting some aggro but this really should be, though it should never have happened, a massive wake up call to everyone that the way players and managers are behaving is contributing to scenes like this. 

I think if you show a pretend yellow, YOU get booked. At one point in that game, I saw about 5 or 6 Roma players chasing him doing it. 

Taylor did a better job than me to keep his cool. I'd have sent off half their team and Mourinho and his staff would have all had to find a seat in the stand. He also done well at the airport to not react because if someone was acting like that and my wife/kids were with me and in tears, all holy hell would kick off. 

[StefanAVFC]

 

The party in question are absolutely grotesque. 

'We don't want jews, gays, abortion, taxes or the EU in Poland'.

[VillaChris]

12 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

I’ve been “backstage” at NBA & MLB games over here in the US.

The refs are shuttled in and have their own security. Coaches/managers and players are not allowed near them before or after games. I believe it is strictly against the rules for them to be approached by either beyond the time on the court/field.

All in all, the officiating of games over here is a much higher level of professionalism plus they are aided by technology etc. There also have multiple officials which I’ve always thought would be smart in football because so much goes on off the ball.

Yep. 

Of course no excuse for the disgraceful abuse of Taylor but why wasn't he basically given dispensation to be driven to the tarmac or booked on a flight from a private airport given how that final went?

Bit like Dowd having to wait for a train at Euston with all our fans after the 2010 league cup when feelings were running very high but I assume he was escorted out of Wembley in private transit back to the north west. 

[rooster85]

@StefanAVFC you have clearly missed the context of these words. Konfederacja is a right-wing party, but they are not neonazis or something. Also the meeting in which Marciniak participated had nothing to do with politics.

[Spoony]

11 hours ago, JoshVilla said:

It's a game of football for **** sake.

Yes, it's gutting to lose a cup final, especially if you feel that it's been overly influenced by certain refereeing decisions, but it's only football. Life goes on. Much more important things going on in the world.

The standard of refereeing, especially in the Premier League, has been pretty poor, but the level of abuse that the officials receive week in, week out, is an utter disgrace.

And this right here is the loop we are stuck in until they change things. Everyone can see it so why the **** can’t the authorities. 

[StefanAVFC]

6 minutes ago, rooster85 said:

@StefanAVFC you have clearly missed the context of these words. Konfederacja is a right-wing party, but they are not neonazis or something. Also the meeting in which Marciniak participated had nothing to do with politics.

Ah yes the nuanced context of “we don’t want Jews and gays in our country”

They are objectively a far-right party. It doesn’t make them nazis (I didn’t say that) but their views and policies are abhorrent. 
 

as for Marciniak’s involvement, I’d expect him to be much more savvy than this. 

[allani]

4 minutes ago, Spoony said:

And this right here is the loop we are stuck in until they change things. Everyone can see it so why the **** can’t the authorities. 

The problem is that people see what happens at a professional level and then behave like that towards official in the lower levels of the game.  Without referees there is no game.  In my view the following should happen:

(a) any dissent (including surrounding the referee or trying to pressure them into making a decision) is an immediate yellow card to all players involved (players on a yellow card would be sin-binned for 10 minutes).

(b) any dissent results in the free-kick being advanced by 10 yards - if that takes the free-kick into the box then it becomes a penalty kick.

(c) captains / vice-captains should be the only players allowed to approach the referee and (respectfully) request clarification over a decision, explain what they think has happened, etc.

(d) players who receive more than 5 yellow cards for dissent in a season are automatically suspended for 1 match (irrespective of total number of yellow cards), for every 3 additional cards for the same offence the punishment increases (i.e. 8 yellow cards for dissent = 2 match suspension, 11 = 3 matches, etc).  It is debatable whether these should be reset at the end of the season.

(e) managers / club officials who berate referees after a match (either officially or unofficially) receive similar penalties to above - but as well as being suspended for 1 match their teams start getting docked points (i.e. 5 complaints = 1 point deduction - would need to consider the consequences for cup competitions).  Serious offences could be penalised by multiple "penalties" - i.e. chasing after a referee in a car park could be deemed to be a 5 complaint level issue).

(f) similar to the above there would be a team / club penalty when the number of cards issues to players at a club reach a certain level - i.e. 20 yellow cards for dissent = 1 point deduction.

However, in order to balance this I also think that:

(i) referees should be fully miked up so that they can explain decisions that they are making (whether that gets replayed only to the bench, TV or to the stadium tannoys).

(ii) VAR officials are also miked up so that the whole VAR discussion is broadcast as per above.

(iii) referees / VAR officials should do post-match de-briefs (rather than necessarily press conferences) where they (and maybe a senior retired referee) go through a match and explain why they have made certain decisions.  It doesn't even have to be on the same day - indeed maybe the following day when they have had a chance to re-watch the match and analyse decisions properly.  This wouldn't be set up as a witch hunt but more to explain why they came to the conclusion they did, whether with different camera angles, etc they still thought that decision was correct, etc.  It isn't about punishing / attacking referees for making bad calls and it needs to be in an environment where referees are comfortable to be able to say - from where I was standing it looked like he won the ball, however, from seeing it from the other side I can see that he possibly played the man first and so it probably should have been a penalty.  I would go further and say that teams / managers could question how Decision A is different to Decision B (i.e. why was this deemed handball when we think it looks very similar to this which wasn't penalised) in advance so that the referee can explain why they think the two are different and / or why they thought Decision A is actually more like Decision C (or to acknowledge that actually in hindsight they would probably agree that they got the call wrong.   Part of the problem now is that referees are seen to hide behind a wall and there appears to be no accountability / responsibility for making poor decisions.   

In my opinion, by being more open / accessible most referees would build up more respect with players, managers and fans - if we could get to know them / their personality better, give them a chance to explain their decisions, give them the ability to admit that maybe if an incident happened again why they might give a different decision based on a better view, etc.  Instead we rely on ex-players / pundits to provide the only analysis of their decisions - very few of whom have ever been match officials.  We might not all agree with their explanations but if they at least come across as being sympathetic, determined to improve and most importantly honest (to admit they made a "mistake") then I think they would be given more respect. 

As an example from rugby - Nigel Owens commanded / commands almost total respect from everyone because he was always open, communicated very clearly, demanded respect (but also gave plenty of it back) and was not averse to admitting when he got something wrong.  You might not always agree with the decisions he gave - but you'd know why he made it and would also know that he would check all the big calls after the match to see whether he'd got them right.  Making referees more "human" would be a great start. 

[Zatman]

2 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

 

The party in question are absolutely grotesque. 

'We don't want jews, gays, abortion, taxes or the EU in Poland'.

So he will be favouring City in the final

[StefanAVFC]

 

Quote

Finally, in a further statement issued this afternoon, UEFA announced that, following a “diligent investigated [into] the allegations surrounding Szymon Marciniak”, it had decided to allow him to remain as referee for the final.

It’s decision was prompted in particular by a further statement from Marciniak, in which he “expressed my deepest apologies for my involvement [in Mentzen’s event] and any distress or harm it may have caused”.

“I was gravely misled and completely unaware of the true nature and affiliations of the event in question,” he continued. “I had no knowledge that it was associated [with] a Polish extreme-right movement. Had I been aware of this fact, I would have categorically declined the invitation.”

UEFA revealed that Never Again, the anti-racism NGO, was supportive of the decision for Marciniak to remain as referee for the final.

 

[Brumstopdogs]

 

[theboyangel]

^^^ 50 shades of Shteve McLaren

[Davkaus]

I wonder when he came over to the UK. I haven't lived anywhere near brum for 25 years but within a few hours of being back and around other people with the accent the twang comes back, can't help it  

[Marka Ragnos]

Boy, this referee had his hands full ... It's interesting that the two worst and most deliberate offenders and instigators -- Edson and Alvarez -- both play for Ajax.

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Marka Ragnos

[Zatman]

59 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Boy, this referee had his hands full ... It's interesting that the two worst and most deliberate offenders and instigators -- Edson and Alvarez -- both play for Ajax.

 

Edson Alvarez is the one person

[Genie]

Has anyone seen the new offside rule? The attacking player must be fully beyond the defender to be offside.

Does anyone know if the PL are applying this?

[fightoffyour]

You've moved the "pube line" from the front of both player's to the back of the attacker and the front of the defender - but now if you're offside you are splitting hairs. It looks a bit silly in the extreme example shown in the bottom pic, but this will/would be a much more sensible application of the law in terms of awarding goals. But there will still be a different pube line to talk about.

[HongKongVillan]

28 minutes ago, Genie said:

Has anyone seen the new offside rule? The attacking player must be fully beyond the defender to be offside.

Does anyone know if the PL are applying this?

Not that I'm biased and this will definitely be a disadvantage to how we play, but **** hell, you may as well scrape the offside rule altogether if "goals" is what they want to see. It's a shame you won't be able to see the art of defending like we used to see from the Baresi to Maldini

[Genie]

24 minutes ago, fightoffyour said:

You've moved the "pube line" from the front of both player's to the back of the attacker and the front of the defender - but now if you're offside you are splitting hairs. It looks a bit silly in the extreme example shown in the bottom pic, but this will/would be a much more sensible application of the law in terms of awarding goals. But there will still be a different pube line to talk about.

There will be extreme examples where the attacker looks about 4 miles offside but his leg reaches back, and the defenders leg reaches forward and they cross by 1mm making him onside. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Genie

[Keyblade]

Our style is **** then. Spurs would have beaten is 5-2 at home if this rule was in play.

[MrBlack]

Interesting.  They do need to make the line bigger and give the benefit of any doubt to the attacking team, rather than the current microscopic yes or no that they must get exactly right (only got it to be got wrong still). Just admit that there's uncertainty, and that the error of margin favours the attacking team to encourage more attacking play.

Giving the attacker a whole body head start is probably taking it a bit too far down the attackers benefit.  Ultimately, keeping it the decision of a two pixel line is still going to trigger arguments over judgement calls.