General officiating/rules

[May-Z]

As much as Dean is a weapons grade rocket polisher, I do like the way he has no time for the squealers and rollers. Just ignores them.

Unless it's Kane in the penalty box, cheating. Then he'll buy that every time.

[Stevo985]

On 21/03/2021 at 21:33, tom_avfc said:

I would say that I can see why that might have looked like a foul in full speed. I find it hard to blame the on field ref for getting conned by a players cheating.

Whoever is watching VAR and not correcting that is clearly not up to the level required. 

Jack Grealish wins 10 fouls a game in the exact same way kane won that penalty.

I don't think Villa fans can look at that Kane penalty and take the high ground and call it cheating. if it's cheating then Jack cheats every week

[Zatman]

3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Jack Grealish wins 10 fouls a game in the exact same way kane won that penalty.

I don't think Villa fans can look at that Kane penalty and take the high ground and call it cheating. if it's cheating then Jack cheats every week

he might win a free kick but I dont think he ever wins a penalty for that type of incident, actually dont think Grealish has ever won us a Premier League penalty though I might be wrong on that

Its just an unnatural movement and the only time I remember Jack having a bad one like that was vs West Ham

[Stevo985]

20 minutes ago, Zatman said:

he might win a free kick but I dont think he ever wins a penalty for that type of incident, actually dont think Grealish has ever won us a Premier League penalty though I might be wrong on that

Because Grealish has never done it in the penalty area (if that's even true) makes little or no difference imo.

20 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Its just an unnatural movement and the only time I remember Jack having a bad one like that was vs West Ham

You have a very short memory then. See the challenge coming, put your body in the way, make sure there's contact, go down.

Jack does it 10 times a game. We celebrate it but when it happens against us we call it cheating.

 

 

The only valid argument against that penalty, imo, is that the ball was already out of play (or was about to go out of play). I'm not sure that's even the rule.

Unfortunately it was a stonewall penalty

[tom_avfc]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Because Grealish has never done it in the penalty area (if that's even true) makes little or no difference imo.

You have a very short memory then. See the challenge coming, put your body in the way, make sure there's contact, go down.

Jack does it 10 times a game. We celebrate it but when it happens against us we call it cheating.

 

 

The only valid argument against that penalty, imo, is that the ball was already out of play (or was about to go out of play). I'm not sure that's even the rule.

Unfortunately it was a stonewall penalty

I think there’s a difference between putting yourself between the opposition player and the ball and actively ignoring the ball to jump into a player attempting to block a cross.

I don’t think Jack does what Harry Kane did in that instance and I’d go as far as to say I’ve never seen anybody do what Kane did there. You could potentially argue that it’s just pushing what Jack does to an extreme level but I think even that is a stretch.

Grealish is in control of the ball and buys fouls. The Kane one was more like the Bruno Fernandes penalty against us. At the point that you’re jumping quite a distance into an opposition payer rather than attempting to play the ball it all gets a bit silly.

[El Zen]

1 hour ago, tom_avfc said:

I think there’s a difference between putting yourself between the opposition player and the ball and actively ignoring the ball to jump into a player attempting to block a cross.

I don’t think Jack does what Harry Kane did in that instance and I’d go as far as to say I’ve never seen anybody do what Kane did there. You could potentially argue that it’s just pushing what Jack does to an extreme level but I think even that is a stretch.

Grealish is in control of the ball and buys fouls. The Kane one was more like the Bruno Fernandes penalty against us. At the point that you’re jumping quite a distance into an opposition payer rather than attempting to play the ball it all gets a bit silly.

Absolutely. I really don’t think it’s the same thing at all. Kane’s movement for that pen was absolutely bizarre. Never seen Jack do anything terribly similar to that at all. 

[StefanAVFC]

Kane goes out of his way to make the contact. He doesnt put his body in the way. Cash isn't even tackling him, hes attempting to block the cross. 

If grealish did what Kane did I'd be embarrassed and call it for what it was. Cheating. 

Saying it's a stonewall pen is justifying cheating. 

[Keyblade]

On 07/03/2021 at 02:18, rodders0223 said:

 

He's not wrong.

He was spot on with everything he was saying about the refs. But then they played a clip of the challenge and   

He completely took him out. That was a pen all day. He would have been booked if that happened in the middle of the park.

[Stevo985]

11 hours ago, tom_avfc said:

I think there’s a difference between putting yourself between the opposition player and the ball and actively ignoring the ball to jump into a player attempting to block a cross.

I don’t think Jack does what Harry Kane did in that instance and I’d go as far as to say I’ve never seen anybody do what Kane did there. You could potentially argue that it’s just pushing what Jack does to an extreme level but I think even that is a stretch.

Grealish is in control of the ball and buys fouls. The Kane one was more like the Bruno Fernandes penalty against us. At the point that you’re jumping quite a distance into an opposition payer rather than attempting to play the ball it all gets a bit silly.

I disagree. I think it's exactly the same. 

It's a penalty all day long. Cash didn't even appeal. Even Smith said afterwards it was a penalty. 

If that's Jack at the other end of the pitch absolutely none of us would be even suggesting that wasn't a penalty.

[Genie]

How can everybody watching the game see these incidents for what they are, a version of cheating. Yet the introduction of VAR has, if anything, made them worse.

Playing for a foul should be an offence in itself. 

[OutByEaster?]

You'd have to ask the question "How far away from Harry Kane do you need to be before you can safely slide to try to block a cross?".

A yard, two yards, twenty feet?

I guess the only real measure is whether he can get to you before you stop sliding or the ball goes out of play.

 

[Zatman]

Fact is Kane gets away with so much he should not have even been allowed to play on Sunday 

[Stevo985]

I agree that Kane gets away with a shit load of stuff. And never gets any criticism because he's a bit of a golden boy. 

I just don't think that penalty was an example of it, and I think Villa fans calling it cheating when we have a player who does it multiple times every single game is a bit weird.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

Playing for a foul should be an offence in itself. 

Grealish is about to have the worst disciplinary record in the league then

[villa4europe]

someone said they checked if the ball was out of play not that it would have mattered...why does that not matter?

Kane has lost control of that ball and its gone out before contact with cash

that was my main gripe with it, he cannot keep that ball in play because he miscontrols it first

[Genie]

4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Grealish is about to have the worst disciplinary record in the league then

Yeah, I agree, it’s not ideal from his/Villa’s point of view. I actually think he started this trend. 

[blandy]

17 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Because Grealish has never done it in the penalty area (if that's even true) makes little or no difference imo.

You have a very short memory then. See the challenge coming, put your body in the way, make sure there's contact, go down.

Jack does it 10 times a game. We celebrate it but when it happens against us we call it cheating.

The only valid argument against that penalty, imo, is that the ball was already out of play (or was about to go out of play). I'm not sure that's even the rule.

Unfortunately it was a stonewall penalty

You're right that (for example) other players like Jack do it. It's (like it or not, and I don't) the way the game now is. Given that players will get free kicks and pens and cards for the oppo if they do it, you can't really blame them for doing it. Personally I don't like it, but it's the way it is.

The way to combat it, is not to put yourself in that situation as a defender. It's changed the way players need to defend - much less diving in, throwing yourself at, irreversible commitment to block, and more jockeying, staying on your feet kind of stuff, as a general approach, and only really dive in to block or tackle if you're prepared to concede a card/pen as a consequence of either getting the timing slightly wrong, or some "cute" forward conning the ref.

My preference would be for the refs to stop giving the decisions to the forward unless it is absolutely clear that the forward had no contribution to them falling to the floor, whether Jack, Kane, Salah, Bamford (and the rest of Leeds's team) and most of the Prem. It doesn't happen the same in lower leagues, maybe the forwards aren't so smart, maybe the lack of scrutiny from all angles means the refs can ignore the antics and not get pilloried "because you've seen them given". But even if the Prem sorted it out, as soon as you get to England games, the interpretation of foreign refs will be to penalise the defenders again.

It was notable for me after the game when Dean Smith said "Targett should have gone down" just before the pen when he was fouled, but stayed on his feet. The managers can see that "well if the oppo is getting stuff for falling over under mild-ish challenges or is deliberately putting themselves in a position so it looks like they're the one being fouled, then we have to do the same".

If you can't beat them (and we can't beat anyone at the moment!), join 'em - Jack did a while ago (as well as getting genuinely fouled far more times than not). The refs aren't a great set right now, but it's hard to blame them for this type of thing IMO.

[blandy]

8 minutes ago, Genie said:

Yeah, I agree, it’s not ideal from his/Villa’s point of view. I actually think he started this trend. 

Nowhere near. Suarez, Salah, Kane's been doing it for a while, Jack's only been doing the deliberately getting in the way of an already committed player for a short time. Before that he'd go down sometime under light contact, but the first time I saw him do the Kane thing was against Chelsea this season, where he hung a leg out that he didn't need to do, so that the defender then hit it. All subjective of course, but that's my take on it.

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

You're right that (for example) other players like Jack do it. It's (like it or not, and I don't) the way the game now is. Given that players will get free kicks and pens and cards for the oppo if they do it, you can't really blame them for doing it. Personally I don't like it, but it's the way it is.

The way to combat it, is not to put yourself in that situation as a defender. It's changed the way players need to defend - much less diving in, throwing yourself at, irreversible commitment to block, and more jockeying, staying on your feet kind of stuff, as a general approach, and only really dive in to block or tackle if you're prepared to concede a card/pen as a consequence of either getting the timing slightly wrong, or some "cute" forward conning the ref.

My preference would be for the refs to stop giving the decisions to the forward unless it is absolutely clear that the forward had no contribution to them falling to the floor, whether Jack, Kane, Salah, Bamford (and the rest of Leeds's team) and most of the Prem. It doesn't happen the same in lower leagues, maybe the forwards aren't so smart, maybe the lack of scrutiny from all angles means the refs can ignore the antics and not get pilloried "because you've seen them given". But even if the Prem sorted it out, as soon as you get to England games, the interpretation of foreign refs will be to penalise the defenders again.

It was notable for me after the game when Dean Smith said "Targett should have gone down" just before the pen when he was fouled, but stayed on his feet. The managers can see that "well if the oppo is getting stuff for falling over under mild-ish challenges or is deliberately putting themselves in a position so it looks like they're the one being fouled, then we have to do the same".

If you can't beat them (and we can't beat anyone at the moment!), join 'em - Jack did a while ago (as well as getting genuinely fouled far more times than not). The refs aren't a great set right now, but it's hard to blame them for this type of thing IMO.

Yeah I'd agree with this. We might not like it, but that's how it is. And I still think there's a big difference between properly diving when there's no contact, and winning a foul where you are actually drawing contact.

Maybe that kind of thing SHOULDN'T be a foul, but it is. And like I said if we critcise other players for doing it then we should be levelling those criticisms at Grealish as he's the most prolific and effective proponent of that tactic in the league. Maybe the world.

The other interesting thing Smith said after the game was that we "made a mistake" for the penalty, insinuating that Cash going to ground was the person at fault. Either way he didn't disagree with the decision

[blandy]

8 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I still think there's a big difference between properly diving when there's no contact, and winning a foul where you are actually drawing contact.

Mmmm. I'm not sure I do. it's all degrees, I accept. Diving with no contact - the worst. shimmying, bamboozling defenders with quick movement and feet, tempting them to try to win the ball, but being "too good" for them - then they stick a leg out, you know they will and you then trip over it - not so much of a hanging offence.  That bit I agree with you. - te reason why, is because the defender is preventing you from being able to go that way, by impeding you with their leg  - that's a foul, albeit a foul "won" not one "conceded"

But, Seeing a defender who is not going to make any contact with you at all and then putting yourself deliberately in a different position on the pitch so that it is you who initiates the contact, as the forward - that's where to me it's as bad as diving. The defender commits no foul, the forward initiates the contact. I'd like to see free kicks given the other way. Whether it's Jack at Chelsea, or Kane/Cash. I don't blame the refs, the forwards are so crafty at it, it's just a personal view.