Genie Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 12 minutes ago, blandy said: Nowhere near. Suarez, Salah, Kane's been doing it for a while, Jack's only been doing the deliberately getting in the way of an already committed player for a short time. Before that he'd go down sometime under light contact, but the first time I saw him do the Kane thing was against Chelsea this season, where he hung a leg out that he didn't need to do, so that the defender then hit it. All subjective of course, but that's my take on it. Diving has been going on forever, I get that. I think this new trend of manufacturing contact, theatrical fall complete with scream is relatively new (in the quantity of occurrences we see now). Jack does it 10 times a game. Mane, Salah, Kane etc all doing it regularly too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tom_avfc Posted March 24, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2021 14 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Yeah I'd agree with this. We might not like it, but that's how it is. And I still think there's a big difference between properly diving when there's no contact, and winning a foul where you are actually drawing contact. Maybe that kind of thing SHOULDN'T be a foul, but it is. And like I said if we critcise other players for doing it then we should be levelling those criticisms at Grealish as he's the most prolific and effective proponent of that tactic in the league. Maybe the world. The other interesting thing Smith said after the game was that we "made a mistake" for the penalty, insinuating that Cash going to ground was the person at fault. Either way he didn't disagree with the decision I pretty much agree with this but what Kane is doing isn’t drawing contact. It’s ignoring the ball and making contact with a prone player yourself. If Cash was close to Kane and he hung out a leg to ensure there was contact then I’d be inclined to say that it’s just part of the game now and everyone is doing it. As it is Kane has let the ball run out of play and ran a decent distance into Cash’s attempted block. I still stand by the fact that I’ve never seen another incident quite like what Kane has done there. It looked weird in full speed and looks more strange every time I watch it. Why is Kane even going where he’s going there? If that’s going to be given as a penalty though then it’s a tactic worth pursuing for us given our inability to cross a ball or pull it back to a teammate. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 im sure Kane had one a few years back vs arsenal where he went to shoulder barge a guy that wasnt where he thought he was, misjudged it, clipped the arsenal player then lost his balance because of the weight shift and he won a penalty for that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post OutByEaster? Posted March 24, 2021 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2021 I'm not for a moment suggesting that Grealish doesn't manufacture contact, he does. This one though was just so strange - at full speed the motion of Kane is really peculiar and I don't think I've ever seen a player run away from the ball and at a sliding player in that way before. It's an extreme version of something we already see in games. I think if a player slides in to tackle you, in the world of modern football he's fair game and if the striker can get between him and the ball then he'll win the foul - Grealish does that constantly, gets between the man and the ball and stops or backs him up to get the foul. Grealish will occasionally stick a leg out too - but for the most part (so far) it's with a player that he's engaged with, someone that's in a battle with him for the ball. This is different to that, this is a player seeing another player sliding and making a beeline for him, it's not the act of getting between him and the ball, the ball was immaterial, Harry ran away from the ball - it's seeing someone on the ground and thinking "If I can get to him and fall over I'm in". If Cash makes a tackle and makes contact it's a penalty, even if it's one that's drawn by the forward - but I think when we get to the point where any contact the forward makes with a player on the ground is a penalty, even if that player isn't trying to tackle him, then we're allowing the likes of Kane (and yes, Grealish) to create fouls from nothing. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 24, 2021 Moderator Share Posted March 24, 2021 19 minutes ago, Genie said: Jack does it 10 times a game. He doesn't. He really doesn't. Like I said above there's kind of 3 different categories: 1. Diving - no contact, or such a slight tiny contact that has had no impact at all. Been going on for ages. Mainly in the box. Yellow cards for diving cut that down quite a bit. 2. Trickery causing defenders to lunge in and foul players, even if not with as much /painful contact as they make out, but nevertheless the defender fouls the forward - Jack does it a lot. As did Ronaldo, Messi...many really skilful players. 3. What Kane did, and Jack has done once or twice that I've seen - and a few others do to - see a move a defender has made that will have no effect on them, but then deliberately change position themselves (the forward) , so that the defenders innocuous action impacts them. It's "clever" but it's (IMO) cheating like diving is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) The issue for me is Watkins doesn't get that penalty. Watkins vs West Ham and Trez vs Brighton were more penalties and neither given From memory Grealish had a similar incident vs Palace not given last season Edited March 24, 2021 by Zatman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 42 minutes ago, blandy said: He doesn't. He really doesn't. Like I said above there's kind of 3 different categories: 1. Diving - no contact, or such a slight tiny contact that has had no impact at all. Been going on for ages. Mainly in the box. Yellow cards for diving cut that down quite a bit. 2. Trickery causing defenders to lunge in and foul players, even if not with as much /painful contact as they make out, but nevertheless the defender fouls the forward - Jack does it a lot. As did Ronaldo, Messi...many really skilful players. 3. What Kane did, and Jack has done once or twice that I've seen - and a few others do to - see a move a defender has made that will have no effect on them, but then deliberately change position themselves (the forward) , so that the defenders innocuous action impacts them. It's "clever" but it's (IMO) cheating like diving is. We’ll have to agree to disagree, I think Jack does number 3 a lot more than you realise. It’s a large part of why he has been “fouled” so much more than every other player in the league. He’s been fouled about 50% more times than the next most fouled player. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WakefieldVillan Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 Interesting debate on the Kane penalty incident. At first viewing I thought penalty all day long. I thought Kane had "bought" the pen but thought it was the correct decision and that Cash was stupid to dive in. It felt to me it was very similar to what Jack has been doing week in week out. On reading this thread, I have watched the incident several more times and I am actually more confused than I was at the time of first view. I dislike Kane and it obviously went against us but I wasn't fuming at the time (unlike the Fernandez pen, and to a lesser extent the Pogba one) - I think he's perhaps tried to keep it in play with his other foot, seen Cash dive in and planted his foot down to initiate contact. I suppose that can be viewed as cheating, but I personally wouldn't mind Jack (or any Villa player) doing that if it helps us win the game - But I understand many fans who wouldn't. Bottom line is Cash was very naïve going to ground which ultimately cost us. The worst "dives" for me are the ones where there has literally been no contact at all (see Ayling's for EG) or the brush on the shoulder (see Salah - Every week ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ChrisVillan Posted March 24, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2021 3 hours ago, WakefieldVillan said: Interesting debate on the Kane penalty incident. At first viewing I thought penalty all day long. I thought Kane had "bought" the pen but thought it was the correct decision and that Cash was stupid to dive in. It felt to me it was very similar to what Jack has been doing week in week out. On reading this thread, I have watched the incident several more times and I am actually more confused than I was at the time of first view. I dislike Kane and it obviously went against us but I wasn't fuming at the time (unlike the Fernandez pen, and to a lesser extent the Pogba one) - I think he's perhaps tried to keep it in play with his other foot, seen Cash dive in and planted his foot down to initiate contact. I suppose that can be viewed as cheating, but I personally wouldn't mind Jack (or any Villa player) doing that if it helps us win the game - But I understand many fans who wouldn't. Bottom line is Cash was very naïve going to ground which ultimately cost us. The worst "dives" for me are the ones where there has literally been no contact at all (see Ayling's for EG) or the brush on the shoulder (see Salah - Every week ) I'm not seething about this one like some of the others but I think this is a little harsh on Cash. Maybe a little naive, admittedly, but the guy isn't even making a tackle. He's blocking a cross that Kane, who's miles away, elected not to attempt because there was a chance to manufacture a penalty. Whatever comes out of the rest of the debate on this, I'm letting our boy off the hook. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WakefieldVillan Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 23 hours ago, ChrisVillan said: I'm not seething about this one like some of the others but I think this is a little harsh on Cash. Maybe a little naive, admittedly, but the guy isn't even making a tackle. He's blocking a cross that Kane, who's miles away, elected not to attempt because there was a chance to manufacture a penalty. Whatever comes out of the rest of the debate on this, I'm letting our boy off the hook. Yes, bit harsh to call him stupid, it was more just a tad naïve, Cash even admitted after the match he should have stayed on his feet. But without going off topic - he's had a cracking season so he can have this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post OutByEaster? Posted March 26, 2021 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted March 26, 2021 That video is nonsense - it puts forward a problem then proposes an action that doesn't solve that problem at all. If the problem is that VAR has meant that we now have clinical decision making on offside decisions that mean that the fine margins by which we're judging offside have become farcical and pedantic to the point where they remove any joy from the game and add large delays (and that is the problem) - then moving that problem from the part of an attacker that is most forward (Bamford's t-shirt, Wesley's heel) to the part of the attacker that is furthest backward (in the new rule 'is the heel back further than the toe of the defender') is just the exact same action but at the other end of the attackers body. We'd still need forensic lines, pedantic measures, frame by frame on ball releases and huge delays to check that and ultimately those checks would at times produce results that would still be very much open to interpretation and argument in exactly the same way as they are today. For me, the best solution remaining is to accept that even with frame by frame and lines, there's still an element of human judgement in offside calls. The VAR makes a human judgement on where a t-shirt line is and on which frame a ball was released - the solution is to accept that if human judgement is a big part of the measure then we should for the most part entrust that human judgement to the linesman - the man we're paying to judge the decisions on the ground. When VAR check an offside decision where the linesman didn't flag, they should draw their line as usual, then that line should be extended outwards in each direction by 6-10 cm. That gives you a band that's 12-20 cm wide rather than a single line - if the attacker is offside and outside of that band then VAR should intervene, if not, they should leave it as "linesman's decision" even if the player is marginally offside within that band. We have to stop pretending that these ultra fine decisions are automated and not a result of human decision, we have to allow the margins for error based on decisions made either on the field or in a room somewhere on a monitor and then we have to correct those decisions that are clearly in error after taking those margins into account. Messing about with the rule without doing that just leaves you with the same problem in a different place - it's just a pet idea that Arsene has had that he's trying to sneak in under the noise of people's unhappiness at VAR. It would be the most FIFA thing possible to change a rule that nobody cares about in order to not fix a problem that everyone hates. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 29, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted March 29, 2021 On 26/03/2021 at 14:06, OutByEaster? said: That video is nonsense - it puts forward a problem then proposes an action that doesn't solve that problem at all. If the problem is that VAR has meant that we now have clinical decision making on offside decisions that mean that the fine margins by which we're judging offside have become farcical and pedantic to the point where they remove any joy from the game and add large delays (and that is the problem) - then moving that problem from the part of an attacker that is most forward (Bamford's t-shirt, Wesley's heel) to the part of the attacker that is furthest backward (in the new rule 'is the heel back further than the toe of the defender') is just the exact same action but at the other end of the attackers body. We'd still need forensic lines, pedantic measures, frame by frame on ball releases and huge delays to check that and ultimately those checks would at times produce results that would still be very much open to interpretation and argument in exactly the same way as they are today. For me, the best solution remaining is to accept that even with frame by frame and lines, there's still an element of human judgement in offside calls. The VAR makes a human judgement on where a t-shirt line is and on which frame a ball was released - the solution is to accept that if human judgement is a big part of the measure then we should for the most part entrust that human judgement to the linesman - the man we're paying to judge the decisions on the ground. When VAR check an offside decision where the linesman didn't flag, they should draw their line as usual, then that line should be extended outwards in each direction by 6-10 cm. That gives you a band that's 12-20 cm wide rather than a single line - if the attacker is offside and outside of that band then VAR should intervene, if not, they should leave it as "linesman's decision" even if the player is marginally offside within that band. We have to stop pretending that these ultra fine decisions are automated and not a result of human decision, we have to allow the margins for error based on decisions made either on the field or in a room somewhere on a monitor and then we have to correct those decisions that are clearly in error after taking those margins into account. Messing about with the rule without doing that just leaves you with the same problem in a different place - it's just a pet idea that Arsene has had that he's trying to sneak in under the noise of people's unhappiness at VAR. It would be the most FIFA thing possible to change a rule that nobody cares about in order to not fix a problem that everyone hates. I agree with you but I still think the best solution is to do away with lines altogether. Maybe have tone to show the last defender and get a parallel line across the pitch. But just have someone review it by eye and unless it is blatantly wrong, the decision on the pitch stands. But as I posted in the VAR thread, hopefully automated offsides will get rid of all this nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 is it still a case of its PGMOL doing these lines not other countries refs? i know holland has their thing, not sure if its caused as much of a stink in the CL, la liga, serie a etc so basically the solution to the line problem is to get to the root of that problem which is PGMOL same as the handball rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted April 3, 2021 Share Posted April 3, 2021 farcical penalty from the Lazio game today in the 94th minute, ball hit a Spezia defender on the back of his elbow and he had no idea where the ball was going and made no attempt to handball it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-k Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 4 minutes added on at the end of the first half of Saints-Burnley. There were four goals scored in the half, plus a four minute VAR review to award a penalty. Can't believe it's 2021 and time can't be properly tracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rino8 Posted April 4, 2021 Visiting Supporter Share Posted April 4, 2021 8 minutes ago, a-k said: 4 minutes added on at the end of the first half of Saints-Burnley. There were four goals scored in the half, plus a four minute VAR review to award a penalty. Can't believe it's 2021 and time can't be properly tracked. You have to consider that the referees aren't arsed. If it was tracked consistently games would routinely run into 100 minutes+ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 7, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted April 7, 2021 It's one of my pet hates. Arbitrary stoppage time. Worst examples are when there's 4 minutes added on (it's always 4 minutes, weird that) and there's an injury or stoppage in that 4 minutes. And they still blow up on exactly 4 minutes. Drives me mental. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted April 7, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted April 7, 2021 (edited) On 24/03/2021 at 10:35, blandy said: 3. What Kane did, and Jack has done once or twice that I've seen - and a few others do to - see a move a defender has made that will have no effect on them, but then deliberately change position themselves (the forward) , so that the defenders innocuous action impacts them. It's "clever" but it's (IMO) cheating like diving is. I was showing a friend this incident at the weekend and after seeing it again I can only conclude it's the most bizarre and extreme form of your #3 that I've ever seen - it's basically the most incredible piece of cheating on a football pitch because it's so "clever" (for want of a less positive adjective to describe it). For a bloke who sounds like he has an IQ of about 5 his brain must process football like Neo dodges bullets. 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: It's one of my pet hates. Arbitrary stoppage time. Worst examples are when there's 4 minutes added on (it's always 4 minutes, weird that) and there's an injury or stoppage in that 4 minutes. And they still blow up on exactly 4 minutes. Drives me mental. This happens but equally as often there will be a 1 minute stoppage in injury time and the 1 minute gets added on as extra, whereas the same incident 10 mins before in normal time doesn't count for anything as it's just part of the normal pauses in play. Edited April 7, 2021 by fightoffyour 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 6 hours ago, fightoffyour said: I was showing a friend this incident at the weekend and after seeing it again I can only conclude it's the most bizarre and extreme form of your #3 that I've ever seen - it's basically the most incredible piece of cheating on a football pitch because it's so "clever" (for want of a less positive adjective to describe it). For a bloke who sounds like he has an IQ of about 5 his brain must process football like Neo dodges bullets. This one makes me so angry. He's not even in a position to play the ball because he's run so far off his line to tangle his legs with Cash's and generate the contact. Spurs fans in that Twitter thread are arguing he was trying to drag the ball back, but when you're trying to drag the ball back you don't take 5 steps past it. He senses that Cash is going for the block and goes as hard as he can for contact and a penalty. If you want diving out of the game, you don't reward players for this sort of thing. It's so far past making the most of contact or going down a bit easily. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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