General officiating/rules

[danceoftheshamen]

All this situation with Liverpool does is to highlight just how dodgy the whole thing is. 

They finally get a stinker of a decision go against them (Note as I have stated many times before that it just happened to be against another scummy 6 / big London club, as the chances of one like that going against them against one of the other teams, are virtually zero) and look at the reaction! Threats to sue, demanding a recording of the incident etc etc etc. The media are all over it & they literally all cry like babies over it all! 

How many times have we been robbed against those teams over the last 10 years with a catalogue of just as dodgy & i'd argue in some cases even worse "decisions"?!  

The crazy reaction, to what was basically an offside that went against them, just proves how not used to getting a poor decision they actually are. Of course now no doubt they'll get another shed load of dodgy decisions go for them as the FA try to repay them at the expense of the rest of us (But we won't be supposed to say anything about it of course as "It all balances out over a season" & all of that usual tripe).

 

[bobzy]

6 hours ago, danceoftheshamen said:

All this situation with Liverpool does is to highlight just how dodgy the whole thing is. 

They finally get a stinker of a decision go against them (Note as I have stated many times before that it just happened to be against another scummy 6 / big London club, as the chances of one like that going against them against one of the other teams, are virtually zero) and look at the reaction! Threats to sue, demanding a recording of the incident etc etc etc. The media are all over it & they literally all cry like babies over it all! 

How many times have we been robbed against those teams over the last 10 years with a catalogue of just as dodgy & i'd argue in some cases even worse "decisions"?!  

The crazy reaction, to what was basically an offside that went against them, just proves how not used to getting a poor decision they actually are. Of course now no doubt they'll get another shed load of dodgy decisions go for them as the FA try to repay them at the expense of the rest of us (But we won't be supposed to say anything about it of course as "It all balances out over a season" & all of that usual tripe).

 

Don't know - care to expand?

[MrBlack]

17 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Don't know - care to expand?

Mings offside rule incorrectly interpreted at Man City is the main one. Arguably the same or more of an effect as we'd hung on until that injustice in the 80th minute and looked like drawing. Liverpool still had another half to play from their position.

 

[MrBlack]

25 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Don't know - care to expand?

Also throw in the couple we've had against united that were either blatantly, and retrospecticely admitted to be, wrong (Fernandes treading on Luiz for their penalty 2020) or an inconsistent application of the law (Ings disallowed goal for Ramsey offside 2022).

I'm sure there are others. 

We've had some go our way against non- sky 6 opposition, but only further highlights that Liverpool aren't unique in being shafted by an error. 

I'm sure Liverpool have been on the receiving end of a lot of positive incorrect decisions in recent history anyway, so they're definitely opening a can of worms they'd be better off keeping shut.

[Chicken Field]

The offside decision in the Liverpool game is potentially the worst VAR decision that has been made in the Premier league so far. I do though feel that Liverpool fans, and the club itself are too extreme (the comment about escalation  is hilarious and embarrasing). We are talking about an embarrasing horrendous humar error - nothing more. Maybe liverpool fans should be criticising the other person on the pitch that made a horrendous mistake, which most definetely cost them a point, Matip. 

 

The worst VAR/referee decision against us that I can remember (since VAR was implemented), was Grealish's "dive" against Palace IMO. 

[Zatman]

29 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Mings offside rule incorrectly interpreted at Man City is the main one. Arguably the same or more of an effect as we'd hung on until that injustice in the 80th minute and looked like drawing. Liverpool still had another half to play from their position.

 

I would say the Lansbury goal was just as bad as the Liverpool goal at the weekend

Referee changed the rules mid game

[Zatman]

Wolves have apparently had 5 apologies from PGMOL since the start of last season. A team who can complain with reason

[MrBlack]

Indeed. A very good example. 

Maybe VAR has resulted in fewer incorrect decisions than before its implementation.  I guess we will never know. 

But it's not perfect, and errors still get made and will continue to get made where a human is involved. Liverpool really need to do one with their complaints unless we're going to retrospectively correct everything else that was incorrectly interpreted. How far back do they want to go?

[wishywashy]

Before VAR, you had referees making absolute howlers of decisions. After VAR, you have referees making absolute howlers of decisions. The difference being that before VAR, referees and their assistants could only see incidents as they happened. Now they have the luxury to watch said incidents over from about 5 different angles as and when they please, the leniency for human error for highly-trained/paid professionals goes out of the window. Referees have never had as much in-game resources available to them and yet there are still these 'human error' howlers to which they have no excuses for anymore. And there's zero accountability or changes other than half-hearted apologies.

FWIW imo VAR as a concept is a great thing for the game, but its implementation, from the very weird rules defining when they can and cannot intervene to how elements of it are set up (aspects such as the On Field Review really not feeling objective) is just outright poor. Doesn't help when many of the Premier League's referees can genuinely only be described as incompetent or worse. Everyone points to the Mike Dean comments where he admits to ignoring incidents because it'd inconvenience his 'mate', but a few years ago you had Clattenburg outright admit that he was biased towards Man United because he was mates with Fergie. Stinks from top to bottom.

This sort of thing genuinely worries me long-term as this only creates more and more resentment towards referees. It's not the most appealing job in football in the first place, pretty thankless in its nature and at grassroots level particularly prone to abuse from idiots (even directed towards teenage referees). Needs to be a huge review and overhaul into the state of refereeing/PGMOL in England, because it's only going to get worse at this rate.

Also, why on earth did they not implement semi-autonomous offsides? The technology is already there in many Premier League stadiums: it was even trialled??

Edited October 3, 2023 by wishywashy

[delboy54]

Wasn't it Brighton who had a string of dodgy VAR's go against them last season? 

[NeilS]

22 minutes ago, delboy54 said:

Wasn't it Brighton who had a string of dodgy VAR's go against them last season? 

There was the Spurs game last season where they had a few go against them in one match.

[sne]

 

[bannedfromHandV]

VAR fails at both a conceptual and actual level for me, and I’ve said that from the outset, nothing I’ve seen since has changed my mind one bit.

Its flawed at a concept level because unlike many other sports, x does not equal y in football. It’s a contact sport, so contact is allowed, it’s only when it’s either excessive or cynical that a decision needs to be made, but who or what defines this? It’s entirely subjective no matter how many replays you have, same for handball, entirely subjective again (aside from the rare occurrences when an outfield player deliberately stops a shot going in with their hands).

Football doesn’t need to be clinical, it just needs to be fun and entertaining, they’re stripping the game of those two fundamentals in the forlorn hope of achieving some form of clinical perfection.

[danceoftheshamen]

It's the pattern which is what concerns me. I am not just on about Villa btw. I am saying all of those clubs outside of the "breakaway 6" (Notice how quickly that phrase has been forgotten). The breakaway 6 clearly get tons of very poor decisions against the "rest" (some of which but by no means all, have been highlighted above). The odd couple which go against the breakaway 6 are almost always, apart from a very select few, against another breakaway 6 club... as was the case in this instance (Spurs v Liverpool). The London factor definately appears to hold extra sway too though nothing as obvious as when Man Utd are in town. So from what I've seen, over many years of paying close attention to it is that there is a pretty clear general order in which the dodgy decisions go.

1. Man Utd, Arsenal, Spurs, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool

2. The rest (with a slight difference when against London clubs in general)

The pattern is especially clear when "group 1" play "group 2" with the opposite also true, as in there are very few dodgy decisions which go for "group 2" teams when playing "group 1" teams. You do occasionally get the very odd one but they are extremely rare when compared to the swathe of decisions which go the other way.

There is also a clear pattern that shows that in the vast majority of cases & far too high a percentage to be classed as normal,  any dodgy decision which goes against a "group 1" team is almost always against another group 1 team, seldom against a "group 2" team. 

As for the other London teams, they do appear to get a slightly higher proportion of decisions against "group 1" than the rest of us and indeed the scales clearly tilt towards them when they play the rest of us also. This is far less obvious though & i'm not focussing on these games here. 

The big issue is group 1 teams vs group 3 teams. I would absolutely love for these to be analysed fully as I think everyone would be shocked by the results. I mean properly looked at over the course of 5 years or something. Maybe one day when I retire and have time i'll go for it . But absolutely it's no coincidence that this Spurs V Liverpool decision falls right into that Group 1 vs Group 1 category.. & look at the stink it's created.

[PaulC]

10 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

VAR fails at both a conceptual and actual level for me, and I’ve said that from the outset, nothing I’ve seen since has changed my mind one bit.

Its flawed at a concept level because unlike many other sports, x does not equal y in football. It’s a contact sport, so contact is allowed, it’s only when it’s either excessive or cynical that a decision needs to be made, but who or what defines this? It’s entirely subjective no matter how many replays you have, same for handball, entirely subjective again (aside from the rare occurrences when an outfield player deliberately stops a shot going in with their hands).

Football doesn’t need to be clinical, it just needs to be fun and entertaining, they’re stripping the game of those two fundamentals in the forlorn hope of achieving some form of clinical perfection.

If implemented correctly it has its value for the offside but as you say when you slow things down a tackle can look worse than what it actually is so I dont think it should be used for red cards unless they do it in real time. 

[HKP90]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

VAR fails at both a conceptual and actual level for me, and I’ve said that from the outset, nothing I’ve seen since has changed my mind one bit.

Its flawed at a concept level because unlike many other sports, x does not equal y in football. It’s a contact sport, so contact is allowed, it’s only when it’s either excessive or cynical that a decision needs to be made, but who or what defines this? It’s entirely subjective no matter how many replays you have, same for handball, entirely subjective again (aside from the rare occurrences when an outfield player deliberately stops a shot going in with their hands).

Football doesn’t need to be clinical, it just needs to be fun and entertaining, they’re stripping the game of those two fundamentals in the forlorn hope of achieving some form of clinical perfection.

Couldn't agree more with this. Excellent post.

[wishywashy]

Still completely baffled at why the Premier League hasn't even tried to implement semi-autonomous offside technology. Used in the World Cup and the Champions League now. The only reason I could find online was that there were allegedly... concerns among league officials that it would soon become outdated? Don't even know where to begin on that one.

You'd think trying to get refereeing as spot on as they can would be quite the priority, especially for the Premier League, given how even singular dodgy decisions can now gain/cost clubs *millions* of pounds. Even at a minor level, each place in the table is worth about £2m+ in prize money. But you've got the Premier League and PGMOL seemingly refusing to improve refereeing quality beyond meaningless apologies, an obfuscation of all of their processes, and former referees now brazenly admitting their lack of objectivity. It's getting ridiculous.

In a way I wish it were all a big conspiracy, because the alternative would be that the whole refereeing system is in this country is pretty much FUBAR due to incompetence than by design, and frighteningly devoid of any talent or leadership at the top.

[PieFacE]

16 minutes ago, wishywashy said:

Still completely baffled at why the Premier League hasn't even tried to implement semi-autonomous offside technology. Used in the World Cup and the Champions League now. The only reason I could find online was that there were allegedly... concerns among league officials that it would soon become outdated? Don't even know where to begin on that one.

I read somewhere that Premier League clubs voted against it. But not sure for the reasoning. 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

VAR fails at both a conceptual and actual level for me, and I’ve said that from the outset, nothing I’ve seen since has changed my mind one bit.

Its flawed at a concept level because unlike many other sports, x does not equal y in football. It’s a contact sport, so contact is allowed, it’s only when it’s either excessive or cynical that a decision needs to be made, but who or what defines this? It’s entirely subjective no matter how many replays you have, same for handball, entirely subjective again (aside from the rare occurrences when an outfield player deliberately stops a shot going in with their hands).

Football doesn’t need to be clinical, it just needs to be fun and entertaining, they’re stripping the game of those two fundamentals in the forlorn hope of achieving some form of clinical perfection.

I don't think this matters conceptually. VAR isn't there to get 100% of decisions right 100% of the time. It's to give referees an opportunity to review decisions they have missed or gotten wrong. They might still get it wrong, but it gives them the best opportunity to get it right in their own opinion.

Conceptually.

Practically it's not even close to that. It's a **** shit show

[Rightdm00]

11 hours ago, danceoftheshamen said:

All this situation with Liverpool does is to highlight just how dodgy the whole thing is. 

They finally get a stinker of a decision go against them (Note as I have stated many times before that it just happened to be against another scummy 6 / big London club, as the chances of one like that going against them against one of the other teams, are virtually zero) and look at the reaction! Threats to sue, demanding a recording of the incident etc etc etc. The media are all over it & they literally all cry like babies over it all! 

How many times have we been robbed against those teams over the last 10 years with a catalogue of just as dodgy & i'd argue in some cases even worse "decisions"?!  

The crazy reaction, to what was basically an offside that went against them, just proves how not used to getting a poor decision they actually are. Of course now no doubt they'll get another shed load of dodgy decisions go for them as the FA try to repay them at the expense of the rest of us (But we won't be supposed to say anything about it of course as "It all balances out over a season" & all of that usual tripe).

 

Came here to say exactly this. Liverpool getting jobbed on one call has created this level of reaction amongst the media. Absolutely hilarious. Refs are humans and will make mistakes. VAR is about improving the referee process, which it absolutely has accomplished.  

Klopp and the Liverpool players have to love how they have been completely absolved of the loss versus Tottenham. It's all VARs fault. Why does VAR keep picking on Liverpool? Big ol babies. The Top 6 is just mad their little mini league has been gate crashed by us, Brighton and Newcastle. Expect more of this whining in the future from the supposed elite clubs of the PL.