Transgenderism

[lapal_fan]

17 minutes ago, Xela said:

Liz Truss

Enough said. 

Hang on!

You forgot Margar.. oh no..

 

Teres...

 

**** it, leave it as it is.. 

[Panto_Villan]

7 hours ago, lapal_fan said:

I think we need to understand too that, a lot of women feel threatened everyday, just by going out.  No-one could say anything to them, but generally being the weaker of the sexes, means they by nature have to be more careful, malicious intent or not.

The entire bathroom argument is essentially women saying "this is a female gendered area, to include men identifying as women in that area still makes us feel threatened - intent or not" and I DO understand that. 

We all have to survive and make choices daily, but for women it is slightly amplified - whether we like it or not, and in an "equal society" we're trying to remove that, but it's hard when we encroach.  

And it's just not the same if the shoe were on the other foot and a female born male came into the men's bathroom.. We don't feel that threat.  

I hate the whole argument, people should just be kind and considerate, but it's not the way things are - or ever will be - whilst we still have this much monkey in us.  

It would be wonderful if no trans person ever did attack women, then we couldn't even have the argument, but it has happened, sadly.  

I understand your point, but I think the points @Chindie and @TheAuthority have made here are valid. You have to balance the needs of both biological women and trans people in the debate, and if you make an assessment based too heavily on perceived risk then you get into dangerous territory. For instance, by definition a gay bloke is much more likely to rape another man than a straight guy is, but we don't exclude them from male toilets because of that (although I'm sure that argument was being made in previous decades).

Also, you have to consider what the alternative is. Is it not going to lead to some pretty hostile situations requiring fully transitioned trans women to continue using male bathrooms, given it's not necessarily obvious that they started out as biological men? As others have said, everything I've seen suggests that statistically the risks to trans people are generally higher than the risk they pose to others.

I think the solution society is going to end up with is that certified trans women are allowed to enter female safe spaces like toilets and shelters if they choose (or continue to use male spaces if they feel more comfortable doing so), but you need to be undergoing or have completed the actual medical process of transitioning to your new gender in order to be legally recognised as trans.

I can't really see any other solution working. If we decide it's too offensive to trans people to expect there to be some kind of certification process, we're completely destroying the concept of female safe spaces by allowing anyone to pretend to be trans in order to access them. If we decide trans people shouldn't be allowed to access female safe spaces, I think society is then failing its duty of care to a different group of vulnerable people.

[lapal_fan]

59 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

For instance, by definition a gay bloke is much more likely to rape another man than a straight guy is

But the power imbalance isn't there like it is when a trans person goes into a mens toilet for anything other than a pee/poop.  They're the same, or.. less isn't a good word..

1 hour ago, Panto_Villan said:

everything I've seen suggests that statistically the risks to trans people are generally higher than the risk they pose to others

From men , which is my point.. whilst women are more than capable of violence, the main issue here is trans people are beat up by other men.

I feel like I've gone too far down the road which puts me onside with JK now and I'm not to be honest - but unfortunately I do see lots of examples of men dressing as women and then abusing going into women's bathrooms or some such..  you've only got to follow Gervais on twitter to see examples of it, and it's not fair on women that it's a somewhat new problem for them to face.

By the same token, I fully respect the trans community and I absolutely acknowledge their struggles, which as we know lead to more suicides in that community than anywhere else in the lgbt/straight populations.  They do face awful situations and the toilet thing does seem like yet a other thing to beat them with.  But there is SOMETHING in the argument I agree with the ladies with.. 

[LondonLax]

Well the reason why it is such an intense debate is because both sides do have justified points. 

[Panto_Villan]

35 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

But the power imbalance isn't there like it is when a trans person goes into a mens toilet for anything other than a pee/poop.  They're the same, or.. less isn't a good word..

From men , which is my point.. whilst women are more than capable of violence, the main issue here is trans people are beat up by other men.

I feel like I've gone too far down the road which puts me onside with JK now and I'm not to be honest - but unfortunately I do see lots of examples of men dressing as women and then abusing going into women's bathrooms or some such..  you've only got to follow Gervais on twitter to see examples of it, and it's not fair on women that it's a somewhat new problem for them to face.

By the same token, I fully respect the trans community and I absolutely acknowledge their struggles, which as we know lead to more suicides in that community than anywhere else in the lgbt/straight populations.  They do face awful situations and the toilet thing does seem like yet a other thing to beat them with.  But there is SOMETHING in the argument I agree with the ladies with.. 

No, you're right that the physical strength imbalance isn't there.

But I think the issue is you're conflating trans people with people who are pretending to be trans in order to take advantage of the situation. The first group might have more muscle than the average woman but that doesn't really matter if they're not any more likely to commit sexual offences than the average person. Whereas it's the second group that are the ones responsible for the majority of the incidents you're referring to - those are the people you need to filter out, not actual trans women.

I feel like that distinction often gets missed by people with strong views on both sides.

[lapal_fan]

9 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

No, you're right that the physical strength imbalance isn't there.

But I think the issue is you're conflating trans people with people who are pretending to be trans in order to take advantage of the situation. The first group might have more muscle than the average woman but that doesn't really matter if they're not any more likely to commit sexual offences than the average person. Whereas it's the second group that are the ones responsible for the majority of the incidents you're referring to - those are the people you need to filter out, not actual trans women.

I feel like that distinction often gets missed by people with strong views on both sides.

I agree, it's the few people abusing the system which allow the argument.

[bannedfromHandV]

11 hours ago, lapal_fan said:

I agree, it's the few people abusing the system which allow the argument.

Which is the issue with most things unfortunately, the minority spoils everything for the majority, every time.

[tomav84]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12735378/manchester-laces-appeal-to-fa-for-clarity-after-being-penalised-for-fielding-non-binary-player

Quote

Manchester Laces - an inclusive football club for women and non-binary adults - have appealed to the FA for clarity and support after being penalised for fielding an ineligible player.

looking at the quote retweets of the skysports tweet, i feel like manchester laces has created a bit of a storm in a teacup. most people commenting have clearly not read the article and as such it's just spreading more hate. i feel that this is the opposite outcome that manchester laces were looking for.

they were born female, have a birth certificate that specifies female, they just happen to identify as non binary. because of this, they need to take a hormone test in order to compete in the womens league, and because (according to the FA) the team have yet to provide some additional information in order to process the application, they have yet to be cleared to play. seems fairly reasonable to me unless i'm missing something?

[Chindie]

Scotland has passed reforms to allow transgender people to change gender officially more easily.

The steam coming off J K Rowling could solve the energy crisis.

[CVByrne]

44 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Scotland has passed reforms to allow transgender people to change gender officially more easily.

The steam coming off J K Rowling could solve the energy crisis.

They have also now made it a personal choice what gender you are and you just have to live as that gender for 3 months to switch it, of course you can switch back later but that's another 3 months.

When did it stop being a diagnosable medical condition of gender dysphoria, which medial professionals treat with hormone therapy all the way to surgery? Now it's legally a personal choice in Scotland for anyone 16 or older. 

[Demitri_C]

Seems incredible this story. The uks first transgender rapist who when convicted was man then transitioned into a female is currently in  a womans prison but will get moved into a mens prison. 

 

[delboy54]

Rape is hideous violence of men against women. To then pretend afterwards to be a "woman" to try and get an easier sentence in a womens prison is outrageous....

[jim]

Just now, delboy54 said:

Rape is hideous violence of men against women. To then pretend afterwards to be a "woman" to try and get an easier sentence in a womens prison is outrageous....

It's disgusting, the defence tried to argue that he shouldn't have been tried at all as he was no longer a man.

This is exactly the kind of thing JKR is so vocal about. A man waking up one morning, putting frock on and deciding he is now a woman. 

[Davkaus]

In this case it seems reasonable to assume that this person is attempting to game the system, it potentially sets a problematic precedent for someone who isn't attempting to game the system though

[desensitized43]

22 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Seems incredible this story. The uks first transgender rapist who when convicted was man then transitioned into a female is currently in  a womans prison but will get moved into a mens prison. 

 

Had he “transitioned”? What I read indicated he still had of his…equipment. Those people used to be called transvestites.

[TreeVillan]

2 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Had he “transitioned”? What I read indicated he still had of his…equipment. Those people used to be called transvestites.

But now you're a bigot.

[desensitized43]

Just now, TreeVillan said:

But now you're a bigot.

Is it bigotry? I’m quite happy to accept men as women and vice versa but just standing up and proclaiming oneself a woman and deciding to live that way without changing any of the biology doesn’t sit right.

He’s still possessed of his male genitalia so in what way can he be described as anything else even if we assume it’s not some kind of game and he genuinely feels this way?

[TreeVillan]

22 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Is it bigotry? I’m quite happy to accept men as women and vice versa but just standing up and proclaiming oneself a woman and deciding to live that way without changing any of the biology doesn’t sit right.

He’s still possessed of his male genitalia so in what way can he be described as anything else even if we assume it’s not some kind of game and he genuinely feels this way?

I totally agree with you, as do the majority of reasonable Brits. 

[Seat68]

She could however be held as an example as to why trans women cannot be held in a women’s prison. Where do you say no they have to be incarcerated with men. At the point they change their clothes, when they are on hormone medication, if post op, is it complete, part way through? Forgetting about this case for a moment, where is the line drawn?

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, Davkaus said:

In this case it seems reasonable to assume that this person is attempting to game the system, it potentially sets a problematic precedent for someone who isn't attempting to game the system though

Thats the biggest problem. Unfortunately there would be at one point someone who would try exploit the sytem in this way. Its disgusting