Birmingham Stabbing Attacks

[Stevo985]

14 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Look at the povety in south Africa and the way of life for many people. Some reoffenders may not have a choice due to having nothing.

London has povety yes but not the kevel of what people there have. Massive gang problems there also.

Im not full of "bollocks" please  stop being a baby and have a adult Conversation without the crappy digs

 

So come on Dem. You can join the dots here if you really try. 
 

You’ve been shown the stats that despite very similar populations, South Africa has double the prison population than ours, despite the awful prison conditions which you said should be a deterrence. You’ve been given other examples of countries with bad prison conditions but high prison populations. 
 

You’ve then rightly gone on to point out that the other factors in South Africa like poverty and gang problems are what makes their prison population higher. 
 

 

Soooooooo... maybe it’s something other than prison conditions that increases crime and therefore prison populations? Like the stuff you’ve just mentioned?

[StefanAVFC]

13 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Why you throwing random countries into this debate?

 

You literally did this with South Africa...

[PussEKatt]

20 hours ago, mjmooney said:

You completely missed my point. It doesn't matter how tough you make prison. People like that don't think rationally. 

I must have misread you because you have hit the nail right on the head there.

When I was a teenager I spent 1 year in a boys home and I can tell you that there is no way I was ever going to go through an experiance like that again.Like you say,some people never learn.

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

So come on Dem. You can join the dots here if you really try. 
 

You’ve been shown the stats that despite very similar populations, South Africa has double the prison population than ours, despite the awful prison conditions which you said should be a deterrence. You’ve been given other examples of countries with bad prison conditions but high prison populations. 
 

You’ve then rightly gone on to point out that the other factors in South Africa like poverty and gang problems are what makes their prison population higher. 
 

 

Soooooooo... maybe it’s something other than prison conditions that increases crime and therefore prison populations? Like the stuff you’ve just mentioned?

Yeah my point was with regards to that hasnt been done here so although its not really worked in other places it doesnt mean it wont work here.  Im not dismissing that it would fail either mind you.

Like we have both said other issues could be a factor why they reoffend. Could be eg gang life none of us really know only the criminals. 

I think we all can agree its not easy and no one really knows the correct response.

Threat of Death sentence. Doesnt always work

Potential longer sentences. Doesnt always work

Shitter prisons e.g south africa doesnt always work

Rehabilitating people doesnt always work 

Point is if someone is going to commit a crime again whether thats because of mental health, or just being evil that individual or individuals know the reason why they re offend. Its impossible for any of us to know as we are not criminals-unless of course we are hiding it well!

[Stevo985]

15 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

 

Threat of Death sentence. Doesnt always work and no evidence that it ever works as a deterrent.

Potential longer sentences. Doesnt always work and no evidence that it ever works as a deterrent  

Shitter prisons e.g south africa doesnt always work and no evidence that it ever works as a deterrent 

Rehabilitating people doesnt always work But plenty of evidence to show that it does work

 

I’ve corrected the above to show you the issue 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

I apologise in advance for the length of this post but law/crime is both my profession and my passion. 

The problem with harsher sentences, zero tolerance to crime and making prisons worse is that we are all hypocrites.  We all commit crime.  But we all set a level of crime that we see as acceptable.  

 As an example I have a clean criminal record.  Not even points for speeding.  But I have committed the following crimes >>   

 Removed pebbles from a beach.  

Drunk alcohol under the age of 18

Sworn or gestured to other road users

Parked partly on a payment

Cycled on pavements

Speeding whilst driving

Pocketed change when given wrong amount

Sounded a horn for any reason other than alerting traffic

Been drunk on the street and/or in a pub. 

Had sex in a public place

Assisted a tradesman to avoid VAT payments.   

Dropped litter

Disturbed people by ringing their doorbells / knocking at their doors and leaving before being answered.  

Used a mobile phone while driving

Cycled without lights after dark

Not had a TV license and watched TV

Cycled through a red light

Sung and chanted a crude football chant. 

Stolen a traffic cone. 

Told my insurance company that I park the car in the garage overnight.  

 

Law enforcement succeeds if most truly dangerous people are incarcerated and the population follows most of the laws most of the time. 

 This thread started because of someone committing an act that most people would agree requires incarceration for a very long time.  I agree with that entirely. 

 But we need to keep a sense of perspective. 

 The “Throw Away The Key” attitude impacts on the percentage of the prison population that do genuinely reform and turn their life around.  

 The saddest I’ve ever felt was meeting a guy in his 60s who’d spent most of his life in prison and I could see he’d posed no threat to anyone for several decades. 

 The angriest I’ve ever felt was meeting a guy in his 60s who’d spent most of his life in prisons and predictably went on to kill again. 

 The legal/law enforcement system in this country is flawed and tragic mistakes happen. 

 But I honestly believe it’s amongst the best in the world.

There’s a balance between reform and punishment. 

We’ll never agree what that balance is or get it 100% right.   

[StefanAVFC]

16 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Had sex in a public place

Sorry stud

[snowychap]

3 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Just the conditions of the prisons

As @HanoiVillan suggests, you really need to look in to the history of prisons and conditions in this country - start from the beginning of the 19th Century and go from there and then decide if 'the conditions of the prisons' such as you're advocating - overcrowding, unsanitary conditions, disease, torture, &c. - hasn't been done in this country) or whether they were indeed conducive to keeping down prison populations or offending rates.

Edited September 10, 2020 by snowychap

[cyrusr]

1 hour ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

 As an example I have a clean criminal record.  Not even points for speeding.  But I have committed the following crimes >>   

 Removed pebbles from a beach.  

Drunk alcohol under the age of 18

Sworn or gestured to other road users

Parked partly on a payment

Cycled on pavements

Speeding whilst driving

Pocketed change when given wrong amount

Sounded a horn for any reason other than alerting traffic

Been drunk on the street and/or in a pub. 

Had sex in a public place

Assisted a tradesman to avoid VAT payments.   

Dropped litter

Disturbed people by ringing their doorbells / knocking at their doors and leaving before being answered.  

Used a mobile phone while driving

Cycled without lights after dark

Not had a TV license and watched TV

Cycled through a red light

Sung and chanted a crude football chant. 

Stolen a traffic cone. 

Told my insurance company that I park the car in the garage overnight.  

You dirty criminal @Mandy Lifeboats  

 

 

You are absolutely right though. The balance is crucial but I do think better rehabilitation programmes, proper education and providing support to ensure people don't go into a criminal lifestyle are going to be the best way to reduce crime (you will never prevent all of it). It is just a slow and costly method that doesn't pull in the votes, but would ultimately serve society better.  

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

The legal/law enforcement system in this country is flawed and tragic mistakes happen. 

 But I honestly believe it’s amongst the best in the world.

They've been doing their best over the past decade to make this a much more difficult opinion to hold (I pretty much agree with you but there are some egregious examples of where it has become poor and will continue to get worse and that's over and above the funding issues that are at the heart of the problems).

Edit:

1 hour ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Parked partly on a payment

I could forgive you most things on your list but not this.

Edited September 10, 2020 by snowychap

[blandy]

18 hours ago, Davkaus said:

why on earth would poor prison conditions deter crime when the death penalty doesn't? 

I tell you what, the death penalty is really effective at cutting re-offending rates.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

Sorry stud

Solo crimes are very hard to prosecute. 

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

As @HanoiVillan suggests, you really need to look in to the history of prisons and conditions in this country - start from the beginning of the 19th Century and go from there and then decide if 'the conditions of the prisons' such as you're advocating - overcrowding, unsanitary conditions, disease, torture, &c. - hasn't been done in this country) or whether they were indeed conducive to keeping down prison populations or offending rates.

Yeah that would be a interesting read to be honest

[stuart_75]

Middle Eastern countries seem to have low crime rates and very harsh penalties? Is that due to religion/culture rather the fear of being caught? Sorry, I haven't checked the stats in advance.

[icouldtelltheworld]

19 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Look at the povety in south Africa and the way of life for many people. Some reoffenders may not have a choice due to having nothing.

London has povety yes but not the kevel of what people there have. Massive gang problems there also.

Im not full of "bollocks" please  stop being a baby and have a adult Conversation without the crappy digs

 

There's an interesting point to be made here. Social problems (violence, crime, drug addiction, mental health, teenage pregnancy etc.) are almost always higher in places where there is more inequality, so whilst poverty is a huge factor, it's not so much the levels of absolute poverty that are the best predictor of things like violent crime, but the gap between the richest and the poorest in a given society.

Whilst the UK doesn't have levels of poverty that are anything like what you find in South Africa, what the two countries do have in common is massive inequality between the richest and poorest people, which is associated with higher social problems right across the board. America also has really high levels of inequality and sees high rates of crime, drug addiction, mental health issues and so on. The UK, South Africa and USA are all massively unequal societies, whilst comparitively wealthy societies such as those in Scandinavia or Japan have a much smaller gap between the richest and poorest people, and also see much lower levels of crime, drug addiction and so on.

There isn't any correlation between having a harsher criminal justice system and reduced rates of crime. If you want to reduce levels of crime, the best way to do so is to address poverty and inequality.

Interesting graph showing correlation between inequality and social issues:



 

[mjmooney]

As I understand it, prisons - in theory - have a fourfold function: 

(1) Punishment 

(2) Deterrence 

(3) Protection of society from the dangerously violent 

(4) Rehabilitation 

In my opinion, far too much emphasis is placed on the first two, and nowhere near enough on the second two. 

(1) Strikes me as rather biblical and irrational 

(2) As we have seen, simply doesn't work

One thing I feel strongly about is that there are far too many women in our prisons, 95% (at a guess) of whom shouldn't be there. 

 

[chrisp65]

5 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Hasnt been tried here though so you cant say its a failure unless attempted.

With anyone if it fails in one country it doesnt neccesarily mean it will fail here.

Out of curiosity, how many prisons have you been in?

How many have you seen the state of the cells, felt the cold and the rain through the broken windows? How many have you first hand seen the cockroach problem in the kitchen? Have you laid down on a prison bed? Have you shared a cell that has a shared, broken toilet with no seat that can be seen by the other prisoner whilst you shit? Have you eaten a prison lunch? What do they have for lunch? Have you worn the second hand prison issue white trainers? 

Which prisons are the easy ones with good food and nice cells and a spirit of friendship in the workshop queue?

 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

19 minutes ago, stuart_75 said:

Middle Eastern countries seem to have low crime rates and very harsh penalties? Is that due to religion/culture rather the fear of being caught? Sorry, I haven't checked the stats in advance.

It’s not quite as easy as that.  Take Saudi Arabia where homosexuality is a crime.  Does that deter people from being homosexual?  Do you think Saudi Arabian Police are particularly thorough when investigating high value financial crime by very rich individuals?  If adultery is punishable by death wouldn’t we consider those that administer the punishment to be the real criminals?  If a Saudi man caught a 10 year old child stealing apples and whipped him, would the child’s parents be able to get justice?   How much crime is resolved by a smack around the head or a kick up the ar$e?
 

[chrisp65]

29 minutes ago, stuart_75 said:

Middle Eastern countries seem to have low crime rates and very harsh penalties? Is that due to religion/culture rather the fear of being caught? Sorry, I haven't checked the stats in advance.

A surprisingly low number of slaves in Oman and the United Arab Emirates ever actually lodge an official police complaint.

[Davkaus]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

 

One thing I feel strongly about is that there are far too many women in our prisons, 95% (at a guess) of whom shouldn't be there. 

 

Could you flesh this concern out a little more? 

I'm occasionally a reluctant Green voter, and one of the things that I've found a bit distasteful in several of their manifestos is reducing the number of women in prison for non-violent offences. It's always seemed to me that sex has nothing to do with it, and it should be reducing the number of people that commit non-violent crimes, regardless of their genitals. It always struck me as an inherently sexist policy. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Davkaus