Generic Virus Thread

[Demitri_C]

7 minutes ago, snowychap said:

You may have read it but you appear not to have considered it before responding.

Edit: The wording may have appeared unnecessary but it showed the frustration that I was and am feeling given the responses and that you appear to be ignoring what I post each time you respond.

Because you're not bothering to read, consider and try to understand what I am posting as exemplified by posting this again:

It is not about whether you and I agree. As I've said I don't care whether you agree with me. I really don't.

I do, however, care that you respond to what I actually post rather than either ignoring things, intentionally trying to say that I am posting something which I am not (especially when I'm pointing out to you where this is not the case) or just not actually engaging with what another poster has said in a considered reply.

But why do you care if i respond to your points? You have explained your point of view i understood it and have acknowledged we wont agree on this.  so instead of using going round in circles arguing our points i just think its best we dont discuss the subject. Im not goibg to change your opi ion on my wording for that post and your not going to change mine. You have explained why you choose to sympathise  with them and i respect that. But at same time i dont share the same sympathy as i have explained.

 

[snowychap]

Pretty typical Johnson stuff, here, in putting the onus on the general public.

Yes, people should take responsibility for the decisions they take but one should also consider the many different circumstances that this might encompass, i.e. it's not all about people booking a holiday, and the information they have at the time of making that decision has some bearing on it, so if they're being told one thing by the Government or a minister and this turns out not to be the case then maybe some of the responsibility for the difficulties that ensue fall on the Government for giving out incorrect advice.

 

[StefanAVFC]

To be fair there's not particularly any 'arguing our points' here.

You made a statement, snowy gave you logical reasons and evidence to why he believed the statement isn't right, and instead of engaging in good faith and readdressing the original statement you essentially put your fingers in your ears and yelled 'la la la la'.

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, snowychap said:

Pretty typical Johnson stuff, here, in putting the onus on the general public.

Yes, people should take responsibility for the decisions they take but one should also consider the many different circumstances that this might encompass, i.e. it's not all about people booking a holiday, and the information they have at the time of making that decision has some bearing on it, so if they're being told one thing by the Government or a minister and this turns out not to be the case then maybe some of the responsibility for the difficulties that ensue fall on the Government for giving out incorrect advice.

 

It's just not true though. Jet2 cancelled their flights to Spain today. How is that a decision for families??

[snowychap]

6 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

But why do you care if i respond to your points?

Because that's how the website works.

People engage in conversations by posting something, having someone else respond and then responding and so on.

6 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

You have explained your point of view i understood it

You haven't demonstrated that you have - indeed your posts in response were pretty much an epitome of a demonstration that you haven't.

And all the way through you're trying to make it about a lack of agreement, which it isn't.

6 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

i just think its best we dont discuss the subject

I think it's best we don't discuss anything, Dem, as I'm rather fed up of trying.

Edited July 28, 2020 by snowychap

[snowychap]

5 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

It's just not true though. Jet2 cancelled their flights to Spain today. How is that a decision for families??

Ah, really. I wasn't aware of that.

[StefanAVFC]

2 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Ah, really. I wasn't aware of that.

I have flights with Jet2 in October, proper pain in the arse if the government keep flip-flopping based on their own political needs.

Edited July 28, 2020 by StefanAVFC

[Demitri_C]

4 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Because that's how the website works.

People engage in conversations by posting something, having someone else respond and then responding and so on.

You haven't demonstrated that you have - indeed your posts in response were pretty much an epitome of a demonstration that you haven't.

And all the way through you're trying to make it about a lack of agreement, which it isn't.

I think it's best we don't discuss anything, Dem, as I'm rather fed up of trying.

Ok thats your choice not sure why your sulking for its so unnecessary 

You need to go have a beer or something and relax. 

[snowychap]

3 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Ok thats your choice not sure why your sulking for its so unnecessary

I'm not 'sulking', Dem.

Please take the time to read and try to consider what other people are posting before responding.

[chrisp65]

I imagine Stanley Johnson is flying to the south west tip of France as we speak...

[Demitri_C]

1 minute ago, snowychap said:

I'm not 'sulking', Dem.

Please take the time to read and try to consider what other people are posting before responding.

You wasnt until you said

13 minutes ago, snowychap said:

 

I think it's best we don't discuss anything, Dem, as I'm rather fed up of trying.

Dont talk about anything because we dont agree on this subject is sulking to me. But your choice snowy.  We dont always agree in things but i have nothing personal against you. I quite like your posts when we agree on things

[blandy]

2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

I have asked for evidence repeatedly, to no avail

Evidence is absolutely available that the virus be can be passed on via contamination from the likes of plastic bottles, crisp packets, plastic surfaces, hand rails, door handles and so on. But you know that.

You also know that because of poor track and trace, and because of a lack of data (and therefore a lack of evidence due to systemic Gov't failings) it is not possible to identify for a large percentage of cases, where or how someone caught the virus in the UK. yes, we know care-homes, hospitals because of testing there and people being confined to those places for periods of time. We know hot spots in some factories etc., but even for those where extensive efforts (for the UK) have been made on track and trace, there are big gaps.

But when it comes to other situations, locations and cases, the UK is not collecting sufficient data. - you seem to asking for "evidence" that the UK has simply not compiled. Therefore in its absence we have to base our thinking about understanding risks. Is there a risk that not adhering to social distancing increases the chance of spreading - Yes. Is there a risk that spreading via surfaces, litter, etc. can occur - yes, Is there a risk that these things - reduced social distancing, the presence of large quantities of litter and the other behavioural stuff stuff mentioned has occurred on beaches and parks etc - Absolutely. Is there evidence that no infections or that an increased number of infections have come as a consequence - what limited evidence there is suggests that yes, it does to an extent increase the number of cases. Not alarmingly so, (to date) and it is possible, even likely, that will continue. The scientists and Gov't have pleaded with people to behave responsibly after seeing the situation at Bournemouth and elsewhere and, rightly, have said if people do not adhere to the guidance they will have to revisit opening beaches etc. Blackpool down the road from me has seen a bit of a jump in cases - no one can prove it's because of the beach, it's circumstantial, but large numbers of people have travelled there, some failing to adhere to the guidance and guess what. And where will people with no symptoms go back to? we dunno. And where will they then spread their cases to - we dunno. We need more and better track and trace to get your evidence. Can you compare Blackpool beach and 20 degrees validly with (say) Greece beaches and 35 degrees and say "well because Greece didn't...Blackpool won't?" No. Absence of comparable data, different behaviours. Poor UK Gov't systems and decisions. Even now the Spain thing looks political not science based.

[Davkaus]

26 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Pretty typical Johnson stuff, here, in putting the onus on the general public.

Yes, people should take responsibility for the decisions they take but one should also consider the many different circumstances that this might encompass, i.e. it's not all about people booking a holiday, and the information they have at the time of making that decision has some bearing on it, so if they're being told one thing by the Government or a minister and this turns out not to be the case then maybe some of the responsibility for the difficulties that ensue fall on the Government for giving out incorrect advice.

 

Even if they were giving perfect, up to date advice, I think it's incredibly irresponsible to give people the choice of travelling abroad to countries that are so high risk that people need to quarantine for 2 weeks upon their return. They're not going to be quarantining on the plane, or in the airport, and it's completely relying upon the honesty of those people to actually follow the advice.

If there's enough concern to require people to quarantine, additional flights to those destinations just shouldn't be allowed, IMO. But you're quite right, it's typical Johnson stuff. Pushing the idea of personal responsibility and good, old-fashioned British common sense is a convenient way for him to wash his hands of any responsibility.

Why do we even need a government? Just do what feels right, people. 

[snowychap]

Edit: Not worth wasting any more time on repeating the same explanation.

Edited July 28, 2020 by snowychap

[Seat68]

@HanoiVillan started his job at Visit Bournemouth last week.  

[HanoiVillan]

24 minutes ago, blandy said:

Evidence is absolutely available that the virus be can be passed on via contamination from the likes of plastic bottles, crisp packets, plastic surfaces, hand rails, door handles and so on. But you know that.

People in other countries also leave litter on the beach and touch shared surfaces. Fomites in public - especially ones outdoors, in direct sunlight - do not appear to be a major source of transmission, which is why we are having debates about *masks* not *rubber gloves*.

24 minutes ago, blandy said:

But when it comes to other situations, locations and cases, the UK is not collecting sufficient data. - you seem to asking for "evidence" that the UK has simply not compiled. Therefore in its absence we have to base our thinking about understanding risks. Is there a risk that not adhering to social distancing increases the chance of spreading - Yes. Is there a risk that spreading via surfaces, litter, etc. can occur - yes, Is there a risk that these things - reduced social distancing, the presence of large quantities of litter and the other behavioural stuff stuff mentioned has occurred on beaches and parks etc - Absolutely. Is there evidence that no infections or that an increased number of infections have come as a consequence - what limited evidence there is suggests that yes, it does to an extent increase the number of cases. Not alarmingly so, (to date) and it is possible, even likely, that will continue.

The virus exists. There just will be a chance of transmission in whatever people do. We cannot separate activities into 'will spread the virus' and 'will not spread the virus', only into higher- and lower-risk activities. There is a wealth of evidence, both from other countries around the world, and from the fact that coastal communities with beaches and lots of tourists have some of the lowest infection rates in the UK, that beaches are lower-risk spaces.

People need to be able to do things. Firstly, it is good for people's mental health to leave the house. Secondly, sunshine and fresh air is good for people's physical health. Thirdly, not everyone has a nice big garden. Fourthly, the more outdoor spaces you close, the more crowded those that remain open will become. Shutting beaches when they appear to be lower-risk for the transmission of the virus is not a good trade off.

24 minutes ago, blandy said:

You also know that because of poor track and trace, and because of a lack of data (and therefore a lack of evidence due to systemic Gov't failings) it is not possible to identify for a large percentage of cases, where or how someone caught the virus in the UK. yes, we know care-homes, hospitals because of testing there and people being confined to those places for periods of time. We know hot spots in some factories etc., but even for those where extensive efforts (for the UK) have been made on track and trace, there are big gaps.

But when it comes to other situations, locations and cases, the UK is not collecting sufficient data.

Would we all like more data? Definitely. Is the UK doing a good job of track and trace? No, absolutely not. Do we have enough to evidence, when combined with data from overseas, to confidently state that *outdoors* is a lower-risk environment than *indoors*? Yes, we do.

Edited July 28, 2020 by HanoiVillan

[blandy]

15 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

People in other countries also leave litter on the beach and touch shared surfaces. Fomites in public - especially ones outdoors, in direct sunlight - do not appear to be a major source of transmission, which is why we are having debates about *masks* not *rubber gloves*.

The virus exists. There just will be a chance of transmission in whatever people do. We cannot separate activities into 'will spread the virus' and 'will not spread the virus', only into higher- and lower-risk activities. There is a wealth of evidence, both from other countries around the world, and from the fact that coastal communities with beaches and lots of tourists have some of the lowest infection rates in the UK, that beaches are lower-risk spaces.

People need to be able to do things. Firstly, it is good for people's mental health to leave the house. Secondly, sunshine and fresh air is good for people's physical health. Thirdly, not everyone has a nice big garden. Fourthly, the more outdoor spaces you close, the more crowded those that remain open will become. Shutting beaches when they appear to be lower-risk for the transmission of the virus is not a good trade off.

Would we all like more data? Definitely. Is the UK doing a good job of track and trace? No, absolutely not. Do we have enough to evidence, when combined with data from overseas, to confidently state that *outdoors* is a lower-risk environment than *indoors*? Yes, we do.

Agree with pretty much all of that. I haven't tried to argue otherwise (other than the extent of our littering) , so it's nice that underneath the discussions we hold the same things to be valid. It is likely the UK beach risk is a little higher than abroad, given our propensity to be less observant of social norms and rules, and the UK Gov't needs to consider that in their decisions. Ideally people would behave better, take their potentially contaminated litter home, distance better, not get as bladdered to the extent that they start fighting (and end up in cells or hospital), but otherwise, yeah.

[villakram]

When is the long overdue cat cull beginning?

[Nicho]

We dealt with the first wave so world beatingingly well, following all the science to not wear masks or quarantine on arrival or declare certain regions worse than others.

Why would we change our approach now for the impending world wide second wave.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Nicho

[Genie]

3 hours ago, Nicho said:

We dealt with the first wave so world beatingingly well, following all the science to not wear masks or quarantine on arrival or declare certain regions worse than others.

Why would we change our approach now for the impending world wide second wave.

As long as we stop people visiting Ibiza and keep going to America, Brazil and India instead we’ll be fine.