StefanAVFC Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 This is 100% political. It's a real shame too, the tourism/aviation industry was hit hard by this situation and this is their peak business time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 The UK has never enforced a quarantine at any point as far as I can see. Indeed you are allowed to put on the form multiple locations where you will be ‘quarantining’. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: This is 100% political. It's a real shame too, the tourism/aviation industry was hit hard by this situation and this is their peak business time. Yes, I said the same yesterday. Theres no reason why the island which have very low numbers should be excluded. They are safer than here, we should be sending people there for 2 weeks to isolate from the virus in the UK if anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Also to add snowy lets say someone goes to one of the badly infected places in spain then they go to work infect everyone in their office then what? This presumes that I have indicated that the policy of quarantining is necessarily wrong. I haven't. I have questioned your 'no sympathy' line for people and I may well question what/who the policy covers, i.e. it's about people returning from any part of mainland Spain and the Canaries but I don't think it would cover someone who had been staying in Catalonia but returned via Biarritz (for example)*, would it? (That may be wrong but I see that the reason given for including all of Spain and not just reasonns was that the Government said that people could just return from anywhere in Spain to get around them). *Edit: From just a quick look, it dooesn't appear that the French/Spanish border is closed - just that the advice from the French government to the Spainsh government is to 'limit' border crossings (not sure how they intend to do that) and to French residents not to travel to Catalonia. Edited July 28, 2020 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, snowychap said: Well, that's a point of view but it would rather suggest your 'no sympathy' line comes from this specific place. Erm, some could have and some did but there was very little notice (and I'm not sure I have much problem with that if the quarantine is actually there for the purpose of reducing the risk of bringing it back). Again, the dismissive way in which you've phrased this suggests that you aren't thinking it through and coming to a conclusion but that you're just taking a position based on the 'no sympathy' line you've already decided to take. Well, that wasn't your point, Dem. Your point was that you have 'no sympathy' with the people complaining about the quarantine being imposed (and the subsequent possible fall out for them). You seem to have glossed over/completely ignored the fundamental point of my response which was about the effect of isolation requirements on people and especially their employment. To fail to have any sympathy with people who may not have foreseen the potential consequences in this area when the Foreign Secretary himself is on the TV on the day that the restriction comes in to force giving out what may be seen as, at best, misleading advice is a pretty extreme position to take. Disagree. Its easy to criticise but not take responsibility as well snowy. You fail to acknowlege that the reason for this is to protect us and prevent a further spread If you know your work is going to be strict and you do not have the facility to work from home then i think its crazy to go abroad. You cant tell me there was no possibility that a self isolation would not be imposed latee down the line. Covid hasnt gone so if your willing to take the risk to go abroad you cant complain if they make you isolate. We still having problems here so i think abit of common sense has to come here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 31 minutes ago, blandy said: https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/local-news/major-incident-declared-thousands-descend-4264115 Bloody councils and their moralistic moaning, and major incident declaring, eh? You know that you're posting this in the Virus Thread, not the Things That Piss You Off thread, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, snowychap said: This presumes that I have indicated that the policy of quarantining is necessarily wrong. I haven't. I have questioned your 'no sympathy' line for people and I may well question what/who the policy covers, i.e. it's about people returning from any part of mainland Spain and the Canaries but I don't think it would cover someone who had been staying in Catalonia but returned via Biarritz (for example), would it? (That may be wrong but I see that the reason given for including all of Spain and not just reasonns was that the Government said that people could just return from anywhere in Spain to get around them). I guess they are being advised by experts hence why they have covered a majoirty of spain. I wont say i know the numbers for each region if the pmaces you mention as i dont but im guesisng it would be they are just trying to protect the public the econmy and self interests. We cannot afford another lockdown snowy so i think these measures are justified. We all want a trio abraod but i think alot of people have written off 2020 so you just got to accept these restrictions until things get better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: You fail to acknowlege that the reason for this is to protect us and prevent a further spread No it isn't. It's 100% political. Based on numbers, people going to Spain from the UK, should be quarantining for 2 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 The odd thing is that in Holland, the only place you need to wear a mask is on Public transport, not in shops or anything like that There is absolutely no distancing going on as far as I can tell. The office I work in has never even shut for a day. It's difficult to tell there is even a pandemic here at the moment. Compared to Spain or UK, we should be on our knees with infections per day considering the mask wearing in Spain/UK but it is not the case at all. Almost no infections (200 yesterday). It makes no sense whatsoever, it should be in the 1000's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 1 minute ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: The odd thing is that in Holland, the only place you need to wear a mask is on Public transport, not in shops or anything like that There is absolutely no distancing going on as far as I can tell. The office I work in has never even shut for a day. It's difficult to tell there is even a pandemic here at the moment. Compared to Spain or UK, we should be on our knees with infections per day considering the mask wearing in Spain/UK but it is not the case at all. Almost no infections (200 yesterday). It makes no sense whatsoever, it should be in the 1000's. I remember seeing the same about the US but then it eventually caught up with them. Fingers crossed someone doesn’t bring it in then it goes round like wild fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 39 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Lose it then like a lot of people are (myself included) i am meant to be going vegas ins September and i have accepted i am going tk have to take a hit and lose ose to £2k but what can i do? Id rather be safer than risk a) catching something b) getting stuck in the states c) having a a quarantine put on you. Uk citizens could have flown back earlier befire this came in. Family i have known have done so from countries like spain and the eu. I get there will be indivdual cases where you might go see a relative that could be sick abroad. Bjt again thats a risk its self as you can kill them by getting covid19 and passing it on to them. If your gonna go my point is you cant moan about anything the uk decides to try keep us safe. Last thing we need is another breakout like spain Are you going to lose 2k? The borders aren’t open, if flights resume and the borders are open, then if you choose not to go then you will lose it. As it stands though you can’t go, it is likely to be the same in September and you will get a refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 Oh, and you can walk through the open border between Spain and Gibraltar, then fly back to the UK and not have to quarantine. What's coming up at the moment? Negotiations about Gibraltar and trade deal discussions post-Brexit? Wouldn't think our wonderful, selfless government would strangle Spain's economy for political reasons. No-sir-ee. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: The odd thing is that in Holland, the only place you need to wear a mask is on Public transport, not in shops or anything like that There is absolutely no distancing going on as far as I can tell. The office I work in has never even shut for a day. It's difficult to tell there is even a pandemic here at the moment. Compared to Spain or UK, we should be on our knees with infections per day considering the mask wearing in Spain/UK but it is not the case at all. Almost no infections (200 yesterday). It makes no sense whatsoever, it should be in the 1000's. We don’t have to wear masks in shops or in the office here and they only became mandatory on public transport yesterday and that was to stop confusion for the terminally thick that couldn’t work out what to do when a train or a bus criss crosses the border. i was in the office with 8 or 9 others yesterday, in a shared building. No masks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: Wouldn't think our wonderful, selfless government would strangle Spain's economy for political reasons. No-sir-ee. The EU would happily do it to the UK if they could, especially now IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Disagree. Its easy to criticise but not take responsibility as well snowy. You're failing to understand the position that you are taking or the position that I am taking. Having sympathy with people doesn't mean that they shouldn't take, or indeed aren't taking, responsibilty. 29 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: You fail to acknowlege that the reason for this is to protect us and prevent a further spread As explained above, I haven't indicated the policy of quarantinging is necessarily wrong (I see the part it can play but perhaps the way in which this has come in to force might suggest that giving green lights to areas and then withdrawing them at a moment's notice is not going to be a sustainable way to carry on) but this missed the real problem, i..e. that isolation measures and quarantining cause problems to individuals and the government doesn't appear to understand what these potential problems are or even care. 29 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: If you know your work is going to be strict and you do not have the facility to work from home then i think its crazy to go abroad. Firstly, it's not about 'knowing your work is going to be strict'. Often people won't know what the actual policy is until they find out. Some work places may well appear fine but when push comes to shove, they aren't. Secondly, it's about making decisions with the benefit of as much information as an individual can possibly have - so if the Foreign Secretary is on TV saying that no one can be penalised or dismissed for following the law and Gov guidance and employment lawyers are saying that this is incorrect then you have to have sympathy for people who may have taken heed about what the government itself is telling them (and that's coming from someone who goes on and on about not taking what the Government tell you at face value). Thirdly, it's not just about 'going abroad', is it? Though qurantining and isolation as a result of track and trace are slightly different things, they need to be looked at in the same way - if we're thinking about it from a public health perspective, in that we should be wanting epople to follow the guidance as much as possible and comply with requests as much as possible. So this applies to people who may go to a pub or a restaurant or anywhere else in the UK that may take contact details for the purposes of contact tracing (even allowing for the isolation period requirements to be lifted if tests come back negatively from the source contact). 29 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: if your willing to take the risk to go abroad you cant complain if they make you isolate It's not just about 'complaining', it's about the effects of that isolation and it's to do with compliance. The effects of the isolation have already been covered but when you are talking about compliance, if the risk of not complying is a £1k fine but the risk of complying is losing your job then a lot of people will take the latter (especially if, as mentioned in an ealier post, the monitoring of the quaranting is very lax). Edited July 28, 2020 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Oh, and you can walk through the open border between Spain and Gibraltar, then fly back to the UK and not have to quarantine. What's coming up at the moment? Negotiations about Gibraltar and trade deal discussions post-Brexit? Wouldn't think our wonderful, selfless government would strangle Spain's economy for political reasons. No-sir-ee. I said this to the OH last night too, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was UK showing how much Spain in particular needs our tourism and money... because it doesn’t make sense. Flying in and out of Florida still ok without restrictions so this obviously isn’t about public health. Edited July 28, 2020 by Genie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: The EU would happily do it to the UK if they could, especially now IMO. Considering our awful record on COVID, they would be well within their rights to lock us down ,and have they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 28, 2020 Moderator Share Posted July 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: You know that you're posting this in the Virus Thread, not the Things That Piss You Off thread, right? You too. Look. One last go at writing my thoughts on this. The conversation moved towards why were different nations having better outcomes in terms of numbers of cases than England. Someone mentioned restrictions on travel outside their local area (e.g. in Wales). Then someone else mentioned beaches and you said there was no evidence that beaches are causes of super-spreading. My thoughts were yes, sure. Although Bournemouth had a bit of a spike after they opened up there, as genie pointed out, that's true (as far as I know). But, there's a difficulty, and it's this. The absence of evidence from abroad around beaches being an increased risk can only be based on circumstances in those places, and they are not identical to those in the UK. While there are many similarities, there are also differences. And the Gov't should take account of those differences when formulating advice. Those differences include temperature, density of people on beaches, propensity for some people in the UK to become irresponsible due to alcohol, lack of adherence to social distancing, littering, travel from far away and so on. And then factor in that in the UK in particular track and trace is not up to speed. it is failing to identify contacts and so on to a necessary degree, so sources of outbreaks are also not being fully identified. That's it. There's insufficient evidence available to say there's no risk at all or the same risk as abroad, and there are some factors and limited evidence that assembly and such like, by Brits, on British beaches, under British rules is not as low risk as the equivalent situation abroad. Call it "moralising" if you wish, ask me if I'm aware if I'm posting in the right thread, well OK, if you want to. Not sure it adds anything to the discussion though. So yeah, I'm just posting a line of thinking based around poor performance in the UK and some factors which might influence that. Have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 13 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: I guess they are being advised by experts hence why they have covered a majoirty of spain. That's just the problem. You guess. Before you ran with your 'no sympathy' line, you didn't think about looking in to it, questioning it and thinking about it? Now that's not to suggest that you should know but simply to point out that you've taken a position (of no sympathy and it's necessarily the right thing and hang the consequences for people) simply on headlines and guesses. If you're comfortable with that then that's up to you but please don't then talk about 19 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: abit of common sense has to come here , especially when you also go on to talk about 'all wanting a trip abroad' and rubbish like that. I don't want a trip abroad but I can have sympathy for those adversely affected by the situation (such as the sympathy I have for your situation in having to take a hit on a holiday that you'd paid for) and by calls made after they'd taken a decision especially if they are not aware of all of the potential repercussions (and if they are following Government advice then it's likely that they aren't). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 If there were legit health reasons, I would say that you can see a reason for something like this, but this isn't. But the tourism industry is still an industry and needs support, and chopping off its hands for political reasons is just awful tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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