The Hung Like a Donkey General Election December 2019 Thread

[jackbauer24]

5 minutes ago, hippo said:

We have quite a right option - and quite a left wing option - I think the centre ground is pretty bland by comparison.

I voted remain - but don't believe at this stage you can just opt out of Brexit. I think we are too far down the line now.  

Whilst I agree with you, Lib Dems are providing the opposite end of the simplistic choice - albeit theirs is at least based on truth.

Tories - Vote for us and we finish Brexit (lie as it can't be finished for years)

Lib Dems - Vote for us and we cancel Brexit (which actually DOES end it immediately but seems too extreme even from Remain view)

Labour - Somewhere in the middle, we'll see what we can negotiate and then put that to you to confirm. (Too many steps for a short attention span public but by far the most logical)

But Labour get vilified for being on the fence because they won't give a simple 'for' or 'against' view on this heavily complicated issue. Such a binary question is what got us in this mess in the first place. It should ALWAYS have been decided what Leave would look like before we voted on In or Out and yet this is too complicated a notion for vast swathes of the public. Labour are offering this now, but people are too weary to care.

[Sam-AVFC]

8 minutes ago, snowychap said:

 

Cummings seems to relish following the Trump playbook, but I can’t help feeling it might be in Boris’ interests to skim read the final scene before going further down the route...

[jackbauer24]

Best outcome; confirmation in/out against Labour deal. Next; Revoke completely (Lib Dem) Then; confirmation in/out against Tory deal. Bad outcome; Accepting current deal. Disaster; No Deal/Brexit Party rubbish.

And I'm 100% in Remain camp. But deal one reduces any complaints from either side. (Reduces, not obliterates!). At this stage I'd take any of the first three deals - anything in the hope the public couldn't be so monumentally stupid twice. First was ignorance/naivety/different versions/idealism/unicorns... To vote for it again, given the opportunity, and you're either an absolute moron or so incredibly rich it benefits you personally. I'm rarely this dismissive of an alternative point of view but I'm still to hear of ONE thing that gets better when we leave EU - the argument seems to have been shifted to 'oh it won't be as bad as yiu think' - surely it should be BETTER if it's a good thing.

[hippo]

17 minutes ago, bickster said:

This makes no logical sense.

Why can't a more informed country change its mind?

 

In theory it can.

But we have some very wealthy and powerful people who have been opposed to the EU for many years - I don't see them letting it slip from their grasp now.

I just think stopping bexit ignores the referendum result - the best bet is a vote on a deal to leave - with remain as an option. But that's a pretty hard sell - and even if we got to the stage I wouldn't be overly confident of remain winning a 2nd vote.

 

[bickster]

3 minutes ago, hippo said:

In theory it can.

But we have some very wealthy and powerful people who have been opposed to the EU for many years - I don't see them letting it slip from their grasp now.

I just think stopping bexit ignores the referendum result - the best bet is a vote on a deal to leave - with remain as an option. But that's a pretty hard sell - and even if we got to the stage I wouldn't be overly confident of remain winning a 2nd vote.

 

Which referendum result? The advisory one with a non existent solution in which the country was lied to and election rules were broken by more than one organisation plus the Russian interference that the current PM is deliberately sitting on. Or the one that none of that happened and took us in to Europe?

There was no valid referendum result to respect

[Sam-AVFC]

8 minutes ago, bickster said:

Which referendum result? The advisory one with a non existent solution in which the country was lied to and election rules were broken by more than one organisation plus the Russian interference that the current PM is deliberately sitting on. Or the one that none of that happened and took us in to Europe?

There was no valid referendum result to respect

Bit too much nuance for the “we won get over it” crowd.

[Wainy316]

To be fair if hypothetically the Lib Dems were to be voted into parliament with a majority, then that would be a clear public mandate to revoke brexit.

[HanoiVillan]

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by HanoiVillan

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

10 hours ago, mjmooney said:

Legalising cannabis and taxing it seems to have slipped by unnoticed. 

Why would they ,  It only benefits the country and the fabric of society as a whole going forward.

It removes the need for 1000's and 1000's of Police,  lawyers,  prison places and Judges.  You could shut a few prisons in a year or few.

Increases tax money in by billions.

Reduces crime (Guess @ 15-25% overnight)

Helps 1000's of people with severe medical complaints. (Epilepsy)

Removes almost all low level drug dealing and the crime that goes with it.  All 16 year olds would drop some weed round the corner to a mate.  Make that 1st trip class a and the people willing to do it reduces dramatically.

Regulated quality and supply.

Reduces the stress on the NHS overnight as alcohol,  also a drug,  will not look so appealing.  Fighting and falling,  not a great look. 

Gives the current Police force per officer extra man hours (Per day !!) instead of crawling around a 14 year old Corsa on their knees looking for a tiny bit of weed in a car like a tramp thinking they are Miami Vice in Dewsbury.

Downside is the pubs would do less well.

In fact,  you can lever it in.  Towns with reduced knife crime,  robberies or violence only can have the New Coffee Shops.  

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Amsterdam_Neil_D

[jackbauer24]

52 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Why would they ,  It only benefits the country and the fabric of society as a whole going forward.

It removes the need for 1000's and 1000's of Police,  lawyers,  prison places and Judges.  You could shut a few prisons in a year or few.

Increases tax money in by billions.

Reduces crime (Guess @ 15-25% overnight)

Helps 1000's of people with severe medical complaints. (Epilepsy)

Removes almost all low level drug dealing and the crime that goes with it.  All 16 year olds would drop some weed round the corner to a mate.  Make that 1st trip class a and the people willing to do it reduces dramatically.

Regulated quality and supply.

Reduces the stress on the NHS overnight as alcohol,  also a drug,  will not look so appealing.  Fighting and falling,  not a great look. 

Gives the current Police force per officer extra man hours (Per day !!) instead of crawling around a 14 year old Corsa on their knees looking for a tiny bit of weed in a car like a tramp thinking they are Miami Vice in Dewsbury.

Downside is the pubs would do less well.

In fact,  you can lever it in.  Towns with reduced knife crime,  robberies or violence only can have the New Coffee Shops.  

 

I can't say I agree or disagree strongly with the policy. However, I was truly shocked that you had such a passionate support of decriminalisation of it, looked at your name and location, nope.... nothing to give a clue to your views on this matter...

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

18 minutes ago, jackbauer24 said:

nothing to give a clue to your views on this matter...

I keep in well hidden but I live in Holland.  However,  I lived in the UK for 28 years so with 20 + years here.  I have a unique view with a 20 + year study done in both countries 

[Demitri_C]

Just watched the debate two complete utter incompetent liars. Boris diving from privatizing the nhs and Corbyn with his lies about providing free broadband to all.

Lib dems seem to offer the best policies and are middle ground than either of these parties. Revoke brexit, 35 hours free child care which is a huge problem, investing in mental health and legalise cannabis which will.provide extra tax for the economy. 

Lib dems all day for me. 

[Demitri_C]

10 hours ago, jackbauer24 said:

Best outcome; confirmation in/out against Labour deal. Next; Revoke completely (Lib Dem) Then; confirmation in/out against Tory deal. Bad outcome; Accepting current deal. Disaster; No Deal/Brexit Party rubbish.

And I'm 100% in Remain camp. But deal one reduces any complaints from either side. (Reduces, not obliterates!). At this stage I'd take any of the first three deals - anything in the hope the public couldn't be so monumentally stupid twice. First was ignorance/naivety/different versions/idealism/unicorns... To vote for it again, given the opportunity, and you're either an absolute moron or so incredibly rich it benefits you personally. I'm rarely this dismissive of an alternative point of view but I'm still to hear of ONE thing that gets better when we leave EU - the argument seems to have been shifted to 'oh it won't be as bad as yiu think' - surely it should be BETTER if it's a good thing.

Yeah let's let brexit drag on for another two years and then on top of that give Scotland another referendum. That will be great for the economy all this uncertainty.

Best case is your second scenario mate 

[StefanAVFC]

28 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Corbyn with his lies about providing free broadband to all.

Did he mention this in the debate? I didn't hear it.

[HanoiVillan]

18 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Did he mention this in the debate? I didn't hear it.

He did not. Nor is it clear how it is 'a lie', though you might disagree whether it's a good idea.

[Genie]

7 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

He did not. Nor is it clear how it is 'a lie', though you might disagree whether it's a good idea.

It certainly is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. Why are they considering spending money on it?

Roll out fast broadband to the whole country, yes please.

Make it free though? I don't think anybody really has a problem paying for internet access do they?

Bizarre.

[snowychap]

22 minutes ago, Genie said:

I don't think anybody really has a problem paying for internet access do they?

People who can't afford it probably do.

Edited November 21, 2019 by snowychap

[Dodgyknees]

45 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Did he mention this in the debate? I didn't hear it.

Nope.

As for free broadband, I'm torn. As somebody who has worked with local (specifically small) businesses, one of the big expenses is that of phones and broadband. So removing that would benefit business, and providing a reliable fibre system for free also helps with productivity. 

Recently, I had really bad trouble with my home internet. Took 4 months to sort out, all I got in return was a £50 credit on something which costs £50 a month. I gave up fighting because it became an impossible task, and I am now waiting for that 24 month contract to end. 

But, I prefer policies towards a living wage, funding the NHS, solving the issue of homelessness, and other policies, long before the broadband one.

Not sure how it was a lie though, and it wasn't even mentioned.

 

[Mic09]

29 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

He did not. Nor is it clear how it is 'a lie', though you might disagree whether it's a good idea.

I didn't think he mentioned it.

Although claiming that it's 'free' is definitely a lie, unless thousands of engineers required to do it will design, install and maintain it on charity basis. 

[snowychap]

Oh, Saj...