The Hung Like a Donkey General Election December 2019 Thread

[Dodgyknees]

2 minutes ago, snowychap said:

People who can't afford it probably do.

People on Universal Credit HAVE TO log on each day to add their job search information, and are required to spend 35 hours per week searching. All of this must be detailed in a work log.

I know someody who gets £270 a month for UC. 

Bus travel per week is £25 alone.

Out of that they pay £30 a month in order to use their phone to log all the info. Otherwise they get sanctioned, heavily. No choice in it, and no help towards the cost.

Edited November 21, 2019 by avfcDJ

[HanoiVillan]

18 minutes ago, Genie said:

It certainly is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. Why are they considering spending money on it?

Roll out fast broadband to the whole country, yes please.

Make it free though? I don't think anybody really has a problem paying for internet access do they?

Bizarre.

To take the final question first, yes there absolutely are people who have a problem paying for internet access. There are sadly plenty of people in this country who have to choose on a daily basis between heating their house and feeding their kids. The total proportion of households who don't have internet because they can't afford it is only about 1% of total households, but that's still a lot of people in raw numbers.

However, I don't think that's why they are planning to make it free. That is likely to be for the same reasons that socialists generally favour universal provision, namely that it's more efficient and less intrusive than means testing, and it creates a 'universal stake' among the population for the service. There's also an important argument that when - for example - the provision of Universal Credit is entirely online, then people should have universal access to universal services.

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, Mic09 said:

Although claiming that it's 'free' is definitely a lie, unless thousands of engineers required to do it will design, install and maintain it on charity basis.

Free is in terms of price not in terms of cost. In the same way as people would talk about 'free dental care' or 'free health provision' from the NHS.

[HanoiVillan]

3 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I didn't think he mentioned it.

Although claiming that it's 'free' is definitely a lie, unless thousands of engineers required to do it will design, install and maintain it on charity basis. 

I don't think anybody has claimed, at any point, that the plan would not cost taxpayer money.

[Dodgyknees]

And actually, one positive, why shouldn't Facebook and Twitter be taxed to pay for access for all, they make billions from us all - using our data. 

[Genie]

4 minutes ago, avfcDJ said:

People on Universal Credit HAVE TO log on each day to add their job search information, and are required to spend 35 hours per week searching. All of this must be detailed in a work log.

I know someody who gets £270 a month for UC. 

Bus travel per week is £25 alone.

Out of that they pay £30 a month in order to use their phone to log all the info. Otherwise they get sanctioned, heavily. No choice in it, and no help towards the cost.

£30 a month to use their phone? 

[Dodgyknees]

1 minute ago, Genie said:

£30 a month to use their phone? 

Yep. So they can spent around 8 hours a day on it searching for jobs, and then an hour or two uploading those jobs to the UC system, and be able to reply to anything the jobcentre send them, and be able to make phone calls about jobs. 

It's cheaper than a broadband connection, & they live in a hostel. 

[Demitri_C]

45 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

He did not. Nor is it clear how it is 'a lie', though you might disagree whether it's a good idea.

You really think he is capable of promising free broadband to every person here? 

I know people back Labour but come on this is utter bollocks from him and a lie that won't happen 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Demitri_C

[Mic09]

8 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I don't think anybody has claimed, at any point, that the plan would not cost taxpayer money.

I get that, and of course that is true. 'Free healthcare' 'Free schools' etc are not free and cost us all money, regardless of whether we use them or not.

My problem is that such solutions are branded as 'free' and a less investigative voter might take them as such. Time and time again we have discussed that public is misinformed, so when BBC, apparently an 'unbias' source writes articles as the one below it's worth mentioning that it's not entirely true.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50439571

Quote

It is an attempt to turn state ownership into an election-friendly retail policy: free broadband for all.

I simply have a problem with a widespread, often deceiving throwing around of the term 'free', especially in a policy that we really need to think about advantages of in terms of cost and benefit. 

[Demitri_C]

Just now, Mic09 said:

I get that, and of course that is true. 'Free healthcare' 'Free schools' etc are not free and cost us all money, regardless of whether we use them or not.

My problem is that such solutions are branded as 'free' and a less investigative voter might take them as such. Time and time again we have discussed that public is misinformed, so when BBC, apparently an 'unbias' source writes articles as the one below it's worth mentioning that it's not entirely true.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50439571

I simply have a problem with a widespread, often deceiving throwing around of the term 'free', especially in a policy that we really need to think about advantages of in terms of cost and benefit. 

Spot on mate

[snowychap]

On 11/11/2019 at 22:45, Chindie said:

True... But let's say Lib Dems are kingmakers and the opportunity to work with either of the big parties to form a government. I've no doubt the Lib Dems will make a second referendum a prerequisite of working with either. The Tories won't be that happy with that but might take a Deal v No Deal option to get the keys to No.10 again and the Lib Dems I could see climbing down on Remain outright at the sniff of power again, because Lib Dems.

It seems your skepticism may have been closer the mark than my appraisal at the time.

 

[Mic09]

4 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

You really think he is capable of promising free broadband to every person here? 

I know people back Labour but come on this is utter bollocks from him and a lie that won't happen 

I think it might. 

When Virgin, Sky, and some new providers use new 6G technology (or whatever future might bring)  in 2035 Labour will champion finally installing an obsolete technology of 2016. 

[Demitri_C]

1 minute ago, snowychap said:

It seems your skepticism may have been closer the mark than my appraisal at the time.

 

Don't see the problem with that at all personally as they still giving us the option of a remain option if they lose.

[Demitri_C]

2 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I think it might. 

When Virgin, Sky, and some new providers use new 6G technology (or whatever future might bring)  in 2035 Labour will champion finally installing an obsolete technology of 2016. 

Yeah it's like giving us free access to dial up when broadband first came out. Its a utter con.

Even if they could do that I highly doubt they could deliver that due to the cost alone.

If your gonna throw freebies around why not offer free child care to parents like lib dems are offering? 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Demitri_C

[HanoiVillan]

7 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

You really think he is capable of promising free broadband to every person here? 

I know people back Labour but come on this is utter bollocks from him and a lie that won't happen 

I confess I'm a bit lost by what your argument is here. Can you please expand? 

[Demitri_C]

Just now, HanoiVillan said:

I confess I'm a bit lost by what your argument is here. Can you please expand? 

What are you lost about? As stated a few times above I believe the free broadband that Corbyn is preaching is a utter lie.

[HanoiVillan]

5 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

 

I simply have a problem with a widespread, often deceiving throwing around of the term 'free', especially in a policy that we really need to think about advantages of in terms of cost and benefit. 

While there are lots of poorly informed voters, I think people understand this dynamic better than you give them credit for. Even people who know nothing at all about politics know that they pay national insurance. But sure, call it 'free at the point of use' if it makes you happier. 

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

Don't see the problem with that at all personally as they still giving us the option of a remain option if they lose.

Well, it completely changes the context of the election and especially any idea of voting tactically.

The Lib Dems are effectively condoning the current withdrawal agreement (and by implication the Johnson government's bill to get it through Parliament) as an option. It is, frankly, dangerously stupid.

[peterms]

9 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I get that, and of course that is true. 'Free healthcare' 'Free schools' etc are not free and cost us all money, regardless of whether we use them or not.

My problem is that such solutions are branded as 'free' and a less investigative voter might take them as such

Do you really think that anyone understands this to mean "without any cost" rather than "free to the user at the point of use"?  Imagining that these things depend wholly on unpaid volunteers, no energy use, and on infrastructure that somehow materialises without in any way being resourced?  Is anyone at all really liable to think that?

[snowychap]

36 minutes ago, avfcDJ said:

People on Universal Credit HAVE TO log on each day to add their job search information, and are required to spend 35 hours per week searching. All of this must be detailed in a work log.

I know someody who gets £270 a month for UC. 

Bus travel per week is £25 alone.

Out of that they pay £30 a month in order to use their phone to log all the info. Otherwise they get sanctioned, heavily. No choice in it, and no help towards the cost.

Yes, I and a few others have mentioned the issue of internet access in order to obtain government services and benefits. What we haven't done is show what this can entail so it's important to see some detail given as you have here.