CVByrne Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 47 minutes ago, sidcow said: Yeah, I've absolutely no idea why anyone would think we're likely to sell a player with such potential now. He's going to either go on another years loan or be back here next year, no question. Well every player has their price but our price will be too high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brummybloke Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 26 minutes ago, CVByrne said: Well every player has their price but our price will be too high You say that but just look at forwards man u Liverpool Chelsea man city sell on from their academy. Some have gone for crazy prices just because they came from them. We need to realise that our academy is becoming recognised as producing good to very good players and we should be pricing them and automatically installing sell on / buy back clauses accordingly. We have got so used to selling cheaply or giving away our academy players since forever that it seems bizarre we should be getting 5/10/20 million for some of them if we sell. That's the model our club has invested in to generate more money for the first team, and while we have traditionally wanted every youngster to do ghe business in claret and blue, we need to change our thinking to are they better than who has that 1st team shirt, if not sell them for a top price. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, brummybloke said: You say that but just look at forwards man u Liverpool Chelsea man city sell on from their academy. Some have gone for crazy prices just because they came from them. We need to realise that our academy is becoming recognised as producing good to very good players and we should be pricing them and automatically installing sell on / buy back clauses accordingly. We have got so used to selling cheaply or giving away our academy players since forever that it seems bizarre we should be getting 5/10/20 million for some of them if we sell. That's the model our club has invested in to generate more money for the first team, and while we have traditionally wanted every youngster to do ghe business in claret and blue, we need to change our thinking to are they better than who has that 1st team shirt, if not sell them for a top price. A very good point. It also helps us circumnavigate FFP restrictions.....These top clubs avoid FFP because they sell academy players for decent money, as you say.....its a crucial revenue stream. Edited April 9, 2023 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 If we were offered £20m for Cam I'd take it every day of the week. £16m + 10% sell on too. I'd take that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 43 minutes ago, CVByrne said: Well every player has their price but our price will be too high Pairing this with the duran thread I think it's more a case of if we sell him or even loan him the price of who we get in to fill his role will be too high You can take balogun for example and say he would be a better option than archer as that back up to Ollie, how much does that kind of swap cost? £10-15m or more? And then you're still playing with potential Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brummybloke Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Pairing this with the duran thread I think it's more a case of if we sell him or even loan him the price of who we get in to fill his role will be too high You can take balogun for example and say he would be a better option than archer as that back up to Ollie, how much does that kind of swap cost? £10-15m or more? And then you're still playing with potential But we hang on to academy players far too long, if we sell them on for decent money, let the other club take the risk on the potential and having a sell on clause means if they do become a Superstar ( 1 in a thousand chance) then we get extra for it. Archer has now gained a reputation as a fantastic young striker, if he is not part of the first team squad come next season, he needs to be sold, and the going rate for that type of player is 15 to 20 million with sell on clause. He will still have more potential, its just the risk ratio to financial ratio starts depreciating. Teams pay the extra for that potential, we can't just keep them all till they are 22 or 23 just incase, their value will have significantly declined as people would see they haven't reached that potential. Our income is restricted due to stadium capacity, infrastructure, no major sponsorship compared to the top 6. To buy higher potential players than what we have or to improve the 1st team squad ( which ultimately is the be all and end all) we need to increase revenue, accounts wise, selling academy players or charging fees to loan them is one of the best ways to increase what we are doing elsewhere. Edited April 9, 2023 by brummybloke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 11 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Pairing this with the duran thread I think it's more a case of if we sell him or even loan him the price of who we get in to fill his role will be too high You can take balogun for example and say he would be a better option than archer as that back up to Ollie, how much does that kind of swap cost? £10-15m or more? And then you're still playing with potential I think Emery wants to go big for a CF option as in transfer record broken. We play with two up top or one and a winger/10 so we'll not be in trouble of Watkins gets injured. Archer has to better than what we've got to break into the team and to do that he needs a full season on loan to post the kind of Championship goals numbers needed to get that chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 If we were to buy a £50m+ striker then that's different but I don't see that either because the market is so poor The liklihood for me is we'd be selling our prospect and buying someone elses prospect for more mmoney which is doable and could work but I don't think it's a priority for this team Upgrading Bailey and Buendia and getting goals from those upgrades is more important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brummybloke Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 5 minutes ago, villa4europe said: If we were to buy a £50m+ striker then that's different but I don't see that either because the market is so poor The liklihood for me is we'd be selling our prospect and buying someone elses prospect for more mmoney which is doable and could work but I don't think it's a priority for this team Upgrading Bailey and Buendia and getting goals from those upgrades is more important Archer will be 22 in December, his potential declines the older he gets. I've seen his play, he has improved his passing and has strengthened and has kept his poachers instinct. He's also got decent numbers playing for one of the biggest clubs in the Championship. I don't see the point in another loan if he doesn't make the match day squads at the start of next season as his value will go down. He will either be ready for emery or needs selling so the money can go towards the first team. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 57 minutes ago, brummybloke said: Archer will be 22 in December, his potential declines the older he gets. I've seen his play, he has improved his passing and has strengthened and has kept his poachers instinct. He's also got decent numbers playing for one of the biggest clubs in the Championship. I don't see the point in another loan if he doesn't make the match day squads at the start of next season as his value will go down. He will either be ready for emery or needs selling so the money can go towards the first team. Yeah I don't see the point in loaning him again My thing is I also don't see the point in selling him and trying to find another back up player, selling him this summer because it's the highest his value is the highest it will ever be just gives us a problem so why do it? I think his age and his ability paired with durans age and what our long term plans for him must be means that we just keep the 3 of them this summer, the only way we don't is if we buy another potential talent which is a risk or we buy a super expensive 1st choice striker which I don't see as priority 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Made In Aston Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 1 minute ago, villa4europe said: Yeah I don't see the point in loaning him again My thing is I also don't see the point in selling him and trying to find another back up player, selling him this summer because it's the highest his value is the highest it will ever be just gives us a problem so why do it? I think his age and his ability paired with durans age and what our long term plans for him must be means that we just keep the 3 of them this summer, the only way we don't is if we buy another potential talent which is a risk or we buy a super expensive 1st choice striker which I don't see as priority Emery has already said that he wants to buy a striker to compete with Watkins and have Duran as the back up. There is no place for Archer in that setup, so looks like he will be sold in the summer then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brummybloke Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Yeah I don't see the point in loaning him again My thing is I also don't see the point in selling him and trying to find another back up player, selling him this summer because it's the highest his value is the highest it will ever be just gives us a problem so why do it? I think his age and his ability paired with durans age and what our long term plans for him must be means that we just keep the 3 of them this summer, the only way we don't is if we buy another potential talent which is a risk or we buy a super expensive 1st choice striker which I don't see as priority I get that but 15 million in the bank pure profit with a sell on clause gives us some protection while letting him move onwards with his career. That 15 million could get us 15 more promising high potential academy players which if 2 or 3 out of that 15 also get sold for 15 mil each creates a very solid income, we do that each rolling year adding 30 plus million to our accounts opens up the options for 1st team signings. After carney, archer going for good money will show that our business model is starting to work and younger players know we won't unnecessarily hold their career back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted April 9, 2023 Share Posted April 9, 2023 Still averages one goal contribution (6 goals 4 assists total) every 98 minutes in the Champ this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallett Posted April 10, 2023 Share Posted April 10, 2023 Boro fans think that Archer has transformed their attack by creating more space for others. They think that his pace and running is scaring the opposition defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosopher Posted April 10, 2023 Share Posted April 10, 2023 (edited) I would loan him out for a full season. Then we can see what he us really capable of. Preferably to a prem team, but most likely a top championship team. He needs a 20 plus goals season in the championship, or a 10 plus goals season in the prem. Although Cam is short, he is broad shouldered and has that low centre of gravity. I personally think he is well rounded, but players like him tend to need experience more than physically impressive strikers live Duran. He needs to develop his footballing IQ, he has great instincts for goal scoring as his foundation that simply can't be taught. Problem is modern strikers need to contribute to the teams style of play as well as score goals. Even Haaland has the power to hold the ball up, and the pace to get in behind, even if his link up play isn't great. His physical prowess means he stretches teams that play a high line, and is a bully if you defend deep against him. Archer in comparison, needs to learn how and when to drop off and link things up in a possession based team if he is to make it as a premier league striker. Running in behind all the time won't work well for.him as while he is no slouch the quick prem defenders will be hard to escape from, and while he can become good at holding things up that is only when the ball is played into feet. This all requires games to develop his decision making and awareness. Edited April 10, 2023 by Philosopher 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted April 10, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted April 10, 2023 Loan him out to Leicester when their in the championship next season, see if he can fill Vardys boots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry'sboots Posted April 10, 2023 Share Posted April 10, 2023 3 hours ago, Philosopher said: I would loan him out for a full season. Then we can see what he us really capable of. Preferably to a prem team, but most likely a top championship team. He needs a 20 plus goals season in the championship, or a 10 plus goals season in the prem. Although Cam is short, he is broad shouldered and has that low centre of gravity. I personally think he is well rounded, but players like him tend to need experience more than physically impressive strikers live Duran. He needs to develop his footballing IQ, he has great instincts for goal scoring as his foundation that simply can't be taught. Problem is modern strikers need to contribute to the teams style of play as well as score goals. Even Haaland has the power to hold the ball up, and the pace to get in behind, even if his link up play isn't great. His physical prowess means he stretches teams that play a high line, and is a bully if you defend deep against him. Archer in comparison, needs to learn how and when to drop off and link things up in a possession based team if he is to make it as a premier league striker. Running in behind all the time won't work well for.him as while he is no slouch the quick prem defenders will be hard to escape from, and while he can become good at holding things up that is only when the ball is played into feet. This all requires games to develop his decision making and awareness. I'm torn - a season with a PL team scrapping for survival would show him in the PL (like Gallagher with Palace) but a season with a top championship side would show us what he could do for a side with possession which is hopefully what we are becoming. regardless, I hope that he gets another loan move to show what he can do before we make a decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david-avfc Posted April 10, 2023 Share Posted April 10, 2023 I can’t see what a 3rd championship loan spell would achieve, there’s no progression there at all. Maybe a loan spell abroad like Balogun at Arsenal / Reims is the best option if he isn’t going to be in Emery’s immediate plans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 10, 2023 Share Posted April 10, 2023 5 hours ago, Philosopher said: I would loan him out for a full season. Then we can see what he us really capable of. Preferably to a prem team, but most likely a top championship team. He needs a 20 plus goals season in the championship, or a 10 plus goals season in the prem. Although Cam is short, he is broad shouldered and has that low centre of gravity. I personally think he is well rounded, but players like him tend to need experience more than physically impressive strikers live Duran. He needs to develop his footballing IQ, he has great instincts for goal scoring as his foundation that simply can't be taught. Problem is modern strikers need to contribute to the teams style of play as well as score goals. Even Haaland has the power to hold the ball up, and the pace to get in behind, even if his link up play isn't great. His physical prowess means he stretches teams that play a high line, and is a bully if you defend deep against him. Archer in comparison, needs to learn how and when to drop off and link things up in a possession based team if he is to make it as a premier league striker. Running in behind all the time won't work well for.him as while he is no slouch the quick prem defenders will be hard to escape from, and while he can become good at holding things up that is only when the ball is played into feet. This all requires games to develop his decision making and awareness. It does require games, but games alone, may not be enough...he needs coaching and directing within a team pattern. Look at how Ollie has come on with some top level coaching, he had games, but not the tuition......my suspicion is, Michael Carrick is not at that level yet to guide Cam. Maybe a spell with Vitoria, or come back to have one on ones with Unai. I watched the Middlesbrough Burnley game and I thought Tella was far more lively than Cam, sure a bit older, but much sharper and commited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted April 10, 2023 Share Posted April 10, 2023 2 hours ago, david-avfc said: I can’t see what a 3rd championship loan spell would achieve, there’s no progression there at all. Maybe a loan spell abroad like Balogun at Arsenal / Reims is the best option if he isn’t going to be in Emery’s immediate plans This. Time to stick or twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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