Pinebro Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 1 minute ago, villa4europe said: Man City have Cole palmer playing for them I'd rather we had archer in and around the squad than a 30 year old journeyman as the back up Cuz he is good enough 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 11 minutes ago, Pinebro said: Cuz he is good enough No, it's cos city use him in situations where he's good enough We have to do the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 21 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Man City have Cole palmer playing for them I'd rather we had archer in and around the squad than a 30 year old journeyman as the back up But city can afford the luxury of having Palmer, knowing that every player around him is good enough to carry him if he’s having an off day, as yet we don’t have that. Infact under Emery the sum of all parts is absolutely better than individual talent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted August 11, 2023 Moderator Share Posted August 11, 2023 11 minutes ago, villa4europe said: No, it's cos city use him in situations where he's good enough We have to do the same What are the situations in which Archer is good enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MaVilla Posted August 11, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted August 11, 2023 fact is, 90%+ of our youth players wont make it here. A large part of our youth system is to develop young players, then sell them off for financial profit and to help the club grow financially, with the very, very few actually making it in to the first team squad. It is what it is, if a youth player is good enough, they will (usually - failing mistakes) get in to the squad, if they arent, they will be loaned/sold to benefit the club. I get the impression that some people think our youth system is solely there to develop players for our first team, it isnt, it is part that of course, but its also part cash cow to allow us to benefit from selling young players who are good, but not quite good enough, for pure profit to help the books, which then helps us sign better players. If we can rake in 20-30m a year (or more) in youth product sales. or through that and loan income, it will seriously help our bottom line, then if the odd one of them actually makes it with us, thats also superb. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: What are the situations in which Archer is good enough? ECL second legs where we have leads, Early ECL rounds where we're comfortable/already qualified, league Cup early stages, fa cup early stages... Anywhere we play opposition that are championship quality or below really 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinebro Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 19 minutes ago, villa4europe said: No, it's cos city use him in situations where he's good enough We have to do the same Archer don't fit the system. He needs to add more to his game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted August 11, 2023 Moderator Share Posted August 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, MrBlack said: ECL second legs where we have leads, Early ECL rounds where we're comfortable/already qualified, league Cup early stages, fa cup early stages... Anywhere we play opposition that are championship quality or below really Hmmm. Those seem like situations which are opportunities for Cameron Archer rather than for Aston Villa. If he's only useful in situations where we don't really need him to be good, then I'm not sure I see the point - he's not a competition winner. The benefits that come from those situations are benefits for us only because they're rests for Watkins - I want our alternate striker to be able to deliver more than that. If Watkins were injured and we played Archer up front in the Premier league, it'd be the biggest drop off in quality from one player to his back up in our squad outside of keeper and right back. I'm pleased for Cam, he's done well for himself and I think he'll have a really good career in the Championship - and I know it's harsh, but we need better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillanousOne Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 what happens when Watkins gets injured? Or even tired? Or we are losing in a match and need to try something different. I don't think Bailey or Diaby are really the answer - neither is Traore (if for some mad reason he sticks around). Duran hasn't played 90 mins yet or even 20 mins for us. Not saying Archer is the answer but i'd play him over Duran as it stands, especially because Duran has had no preseason. No issue with him going on loan or selling him with a buy back clause, but we need another striker who can deputise when needed. As much as selling Ings was the right move, it was a huge gamble. Fortunately Watkins didn't get injured, but i wouldn't roll the dice again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steero113 Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 Just now, VillanousOne said: what happens when Watkins gets injured? Or even tired? Or we are losing in a match and need to try something different. I don't think Bailey or Diaby are really the answer - neither is Traore (if for some mad reason he sticks around). Duran hasn't played 90 mins yet or even 20 mins for us. Not saying Archer is the answer but i'd play him over Duran as it stands, especially because Duran has had no preseason. No issue with him going on loan or selling him with a buy back clause, but we need another striker who can deputise when needed. As much as selling Ings was the right move, it was a huge gamble. Fortunately Watkins didn't get injured, but i wouldn't roll the dice again. I'm fairly sure he could play a 100 match season and not get tired. He's fitter than prime Haile Gebrselassie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: Hmmm. Those seem like situations which are opportunities for Cameron Archer rather than for Aston Villa. If he's only useful in situations where we don't really need him to be good, then I'm not sure I see the point - he's not a competition winner. The benefits that come from those situations are benefits for us only because they're rests for Watkins - I want our alternate striker to be able to deliver more than that. If Watkins were injured and we played Archer up front in the Premier league, it'd be the biggest drop off in quality from one player to his back up in our squad outside of keeper and right back. I'm pleased for Cam, he's done well for himself and I think he'll have a really good career in the Championship - and I know it's harsh, but we need better. Agreed they're options for him to develop. And in the sense that they are rests for Watkins, in situations where we shouldn't need to worry about the drop off in quality, that is ideal for our purposes this season and worth the trade off for the improvement we'll see in Archer. Watkins starts 35 games in the PL (potentially rested against relegation candidates/promoted teams), and just over half the cup games (first legs, early group games, latter stages) and that's a perfectly manageable load for him. Archer trains our way, plays with our team, and I guess I think his ceiling is higher than you do. I agree it does present a concern if Watkins gets injured, but for me massively less than if Martinez got injured. But by that point he may have shown enough in his opportunities to be trusted. I'd welcome an older striker to be the injury backup, but not sure theres many out there that would be reasonable value for what we need from them in that scenario. If we only get value from them through it enabling us to send Archer on loan/ sell with buy back, then it's kind of a 50:50 for me. Id probably be gambling on Watkins consistent fitness record, Diaby/Zaniolo as alternatives in emergency, and Duran/Archer potential until January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KangarooVillan Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 1 hour ago, villaglint said: Correct me if I'm wrong but I dont think Archer is used to being the figurehead of an attack. He played up top with Akpom at Middlesborough and pretty sure there was a target man type player alongside him at Preston. At Villa he is playing the Watkins role leading the line and maybe that doesnt get the best out of him. Anyway assuming we bring in another striker I'm happy. Seems to be zero links to strikers though, that is the concerning bit. Akpom scored loads of goals but often played deeper for boro with archer up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted August 11, 2023 Moderator Share Posted August 11, 2023 8 minutes ago, MrBlack said: Agreed they're options for him to develop. And in the sense that they are rests for Watkins, in situations where we shouldn't need to worry about the drop off in quality, that is ideal for our purposes this season and worth the trade off for the improvement we'll see in Archer. Watkins starts 35 games in the PL (potentially rested against relegation candidates/promoted teams), and just over half the cup games (first legs, early group games, latter stages) and that's a perfectly manageable load for him. Archer trains our way, plays with our team, and I guess I think his ceiling is higher than you do. That all makes perfectly logical sense, and I think we're probably making two logical arguments based on very different starting premises. I don't think Archer will ever be good enough and I think we need to buy someone - but I do get that if you do think Archer will develop into a Premier League striker then it's worth putting time into him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: That all makes perfectly logical sense, and I think we're probably making two logical arguments based on very different starting premises. I don't think Archer will ever be good enough and I think we need to buy someone - but I do get that if you do think Archer will develop into a Premier League striker then it's worth putting time into him. Agreed. If I didn't think he had what it takes I'd be happy for us to cash in now. I do feel his knack for scoring and dual footedness makes him a unique talent that will always have a place in the PL. If we see him sold i think we can assume Emery feels the same way you do, and I'm inclined to trust his judgement on this if that be the case. I like how he phrased it as retaining control of their future...and I think for players like Ramsey and Archer who are fans of villa it is something we can claim to have. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 (edited) I recognise that Cameron Archer is not the finished article, but I also recognise that forwards have differing attributes, and may never develop the missing ones or weaker ones. one of the most difficult tasks a forward has, is scoring goals regularly.....Cam has shown signs of that, at a decent level, but he is still young and learning other supporting attributes......decision making, positional sense, staying on the ball, bringing players in, vision and awareness.....all these things have to be enhanced in the league he is planning to be in....He has to learn those things on the job, like many players before him did. Ollie is a different type of forward and I don't see Cam deputising for him without us losing something from Ollies tool set......We could have a Jermaine Defoe, in his prime and still come to the same conclusion.....because they offer different things, whilst still being forwards. The paradox is, some still have doubts about Ollie, regarding his finishing, yet accept that, as being Cams strong point......its so difficult to have a forward who is good at everything that forwards do. I don't know, what UE will do with him, but I don't think its an easy answer. Edited August 11, 2023 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillanousOne Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 (edited) I remember when Jacob was given game time and he struggled from time to time and many said he wasn't ready or good enough, but we persisted and now he's probably in the top 20 midfielders in the country. People wrote off Bidace many times, even based on his loan performances and yet many now think he could be like a new signing and want him to stick around. I will stick my neck on the line and say if Archer got game time he would score goals, not saying he would be at the level we need him to be, impossible to speculate at this point, but seem to recall him scoring against Chelsea in the cup, no one was bleating he's not good enough then. Just funny how some use a few pre-season game 'cameos' to write him off. I have no idea if Unai rates him either, oh wait forget to end with 'whatever Unai thinks I trust him' which is true, but don't need to state it every ten seconds. Edited August 11, 2023 by VillanousOne morris dancing horses 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 (edited) He has played less than 10 games for us in the Premier League, of which I presume all were off the bench. Everything he has done so far indicates he deserves a chance- scoring in the cups, in the EFL and for the under 21's. He needs more game time and with hopefully with all of our potential cup competitions, he will be given it. Pre-season means the square root of f**k all and every season fans seem to forget this. Edited August 11, 2023 by The Fun Factory 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's Your Round Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Steero113 said: I'm fairly sure he could play a 100 match season and not get tired. He's fitter than prime Haile Gebrselassie What if he has another child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillanousOne Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 1 minute ago, It's Your Round said: What if he has another child? exactly! and what if Watkins discovers scientology? Or aliens steal his feet? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulberto21 Posted August 11, 2023 Share Posted August 11, 2023 1 minute ago, VillanousOne said: exactly! and what if Watkins discovers scientology? Or aliens steal his feet? Them fecking blosers can f right off! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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