Cameron Archer

[Eligius]

I wouldn't mind if we sell Cam as long as we insert a buy back clause, he's more likely to get a lot more playing time and we can judge if he is good enough for the Premier League without the risk of him not being good enough in a Villa shirt.

[allani]

Just now, Eligius said:

I wouldn't mind if we sell Cam as long as we insert a buy back clause, he's more likely to get a lot more playing time and we can judge if he is good enough for the Premier League without the risk of him not being good enough in a Villa shirt.

I think we are going to see a lot of this in the next few years.  And if we do it means that our Academy is doing a great job of churning out Premier League standard talent.  It also means that we've consolidated ourselves into a position where we can afford to allow other clubs to give the players their chance in the PL, knowing that we can then call those players back if they make that final step.

[TRO]

12 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think because Jacob is a better player. 

There's only six months between them and Ramsey was playing Premier League football while Archer was struggling to make an impact on loan at Solihull Moors.

Archer has had a big jump from there - that experience seems to have been the making of him, he's pushed on now to the point where he's a useful Premier League back up or a very good Championship striker - I think we're going to need more than that though to back up Ollie and if we get it, I'm not sure Cameron would be doing himself any favours sticking around here.

 

He is now, with 100 premier league games under his belt.....which is my main point.

I accept the fact that our exponential rise has inadvertently set the bar a bit high for some these developing players.....I still have much faith in Cameron, as I do in the manager,to do the right thing,  its a tricky one.

Cam has moved on from Solihull Moors with aplomb, and his rate of goal scoring ( albeit the championship) is impressive......I think he has been a bit of a late developer, like platty....so I think once he has added attributes to his game and I think he will, given games, he will be well sought after.

Edited August 11, 2023 by TRO

[allani]

15 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think we are expecting him to be " Oven Ready" for the Premier League, when he steps on to the pitch.....I think that is a tad unfair.

He has to learn the rest of his craft, in the top league.....JJ was given a chance, why not Cam.

I think our aspirations as a team, are blocking his route.....He won't learn to develop the finer arts of hold up play, unless he plays.....paradox yes, but thats what it is.

I just have a sneaky feeling he might turn out to be the one that got away.......unless we sell with a buy back clause.

I thought Emery said yesterday that if we sell then it will include a buy back clause?  I'd be very surprised if we sell any young players to team at the top of the Championship / bottom of the Premier League without a buy back clause.  I mean yes it means we get less than we might for the initial transfer (which if we then never activate a buy back clause might be seen as silly) but it does hugely mitigate that "the one that got away" risk.  Not altogether - because it might take 3, 4 or 5 seasons for that player to realise their potential (Douglas Luiz as a possible example).

[OutByEaster?]

Just now, TRO said:

Cam has moved on from Solihull Moors with aplomb, and his rate of goal scoring ( albeit the championship) is impressive......I think he has been a bit of a late developer, like platty....so I think once he has added attributes to his game and I think he will given games, he will be well sought after.

He certainly has, at the time he finished that move, you'd have got decent odds on him not having a future as a professional, but he's worked really hard on himself, developed physically and technically and is now a very competent striker. 

What I don't think he is however is good enough to be our Watkins alternate - someone we bring in for cups and the occasional game who provides us with cover if Ollie is injured - he might be good enough to stick around as a third choice, but I'm not sure that would help his career - it's playing games that has pushed him forward.

Ultimately, I think it would be the right thing for him, and probably for us, to move him on at some point in the next couple of windows. I think if he finds the right club; a Norwich or Watford or Stoke - a good Championship club that plays the occasional year in the top flight, he could make a fantastic career for himself.

If he's starting games here, then I think we've gotten something wrong.

 

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, allani said:

I thought Emery said yesterday that if we sell then it will include a buy back clause?  I'd be very surprised if we sell any young players to team at the top of the Championship / bottom of the Premier League without a buy back clause.  I mean yes it means we get less than we might for the initial transfer (which if we then never activate a buy back clause might be seen as silly) but it does hugely mitigate that "the one that got away" risk.  Not altogether - because it might take 3, 4 or 5 seasons for that player to realise their potential (Douglas Luiz as a possible example).

Yeah, I get all that.

I just feel a bit sad for the lad, when JJ and Dougie have been given game time to hone their skills.....and look how that has worked.

I realise the implications of why that is, with out ascendency up the league and our pusuit of excellence...........but still feel a bit sorry for him.

[allani]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

He is now, with 100 premier league games under his belt.....which is my main point.

I accept the fact that our exponential rise has inadvertently set the bar a bit high for some these developing players.....I still have much faith in Cameron, as I do in the manager,to do the right thing,  its a tricky one.

Cam has moved on from Solihull Moors with aplomb, and his rate of goal scoring ( albeit the championship) is impressive......I think he has been a bit of a late developer, like platty....so I think once he has added attributes to his game and I think he will, given games, he will be well sought after.

Indeed and the bolded part is key.  At the moment I think that let's say Zaniolo happens (and works out) then you could easily bring Archer on for 20 - 30 minutes to give Ollie a rest and not be panicking about not scoring.  You'd expect Diaby and Zaniolo to grab a few - and as I said on the Zaniolo thread, I think he held the record for the most shots that led to a goal scored by someone else in Serie A one season (i.e. a shot saved that is then converted by another player) - which would better suit Archer's game.

But if we think that giving Archer more time playing for another PL team so that he can develop his game and we can re-assess in 1 or 2 season's time and in the meantime that means we can bring in an international level player who can genuinely contribute from Day 1 - it kind of feels like a better option all round.  Archer gets more time starting big matches (rather than just playing lower level teams in the cup), we are stronger for the next couple of seasons and with a good buy back clause in place we have the opportunity to bring him back when he's a genuine challenger for a starting place.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

He certainly has, at the time he finished that move, you'd have got decent odds on him not having a future as a professional, but he's worked really hard on himself, developed physically and technically and is now a very competent striker. 

What I don't think he is however is good enough to be our Watkins alternate - someone we bring in for cups and the occasional game who provides us with cover if Ollie is injured - he might be good enough to stick around as a third choice, but I'm not sure that would help his career - it's playing games that has pushed him forward.

Ultimately, I think it would be the right thing for him, and probably for us, to move him on at some point in the next couple of windows. I think if he finds the right club; a Norwich or Watford or Stoke - a good Championship club that plays the occasional year in the top flight, he could make a fantastic career for himself.

If he's starting games here, then I think we've gotten something wrong.

 

Yeah, I can't disagree....Problem is Ollie is one of the best front men around now, so its a tall order.

I still have a suspicion, had he of scored a few in pre season, the narrative would be slightly different.

I get your point, and don't disagree, don't stop me feeling a bit sad for him.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, allani said:

Indeed and the bolded part is key.  At the moment I think that let's say Zaniolo happens (and works out) then you could easily bring Archer on for 20 - 30 minutes to give Ollie a rest and not be panicking about not scoring.  You'd expect Diaby and Zaniolo to grab a few - and as I said on the Zaniolo thread, I think he held the record for the most shots that led to a goal scored by someone else in Serie A one season (i.e. a shot saved that is then converted by another player) - which would better suit Archer's game.

But if we think that giving Archer more time playing for another PL team so that he can develop his game and we can re-assess in 1 or 2 season's time and in the meantime that means we can bring in an international level player who can genuinely contribute from Day 1 - it kind of feels like a better option all round.  Archer gets more time starting big matches (rather than just playing lower level teams in the cup), we are stronger for the next couple of seasons and with a good buy back clause in place we have the opportunity to bring him back when he's a genuine challenger for a starting place.

Yeah....I know it makes sense.

[allani]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

Yeah, I get all that.

I just feel a bit sad for the lad, when JJ and Dougie have been given game time to hone their skills.....and look how that has worked.

I realise the implications of why that is, with out ascendency up the league and our pusuit of excellence...........but still feel a bit sorry for him.

But didn't JJ and Dougie have exactly the same opportunity of honing their skills in a bottom half PL team to prove that they should be amongst the first names on the team sheet at a team in the top 8?  As I say I think I'd like him to stay (unless the money is needed to fund the transfer of a player who will improve our team immediately) but I can also see that this would be a great sell / opportunity for him.  Stay and play the odd game against the likes of Gillingham, Bristol Rovers, etc in the cup and maybe a few PL minutes here and there or go and be the main man at a lower PL team and if you score 10 - 15 goals then we'll bring you back and you'll have the opportunity to directly compete with Ollie for our starting shirt next season.

[YLN]

These buy back clauses are a fantasy. If he's sold, he's gone.

[allani]

1 minute ago, YLN said:

These buy back clauses are a fantasy. If he's sold, he's gone.

There are plenty of examples in Spain of young players being sold to develop at smaller clubs where they will get more minutes and then returning to their "parent" club and walking into the starting XI.  It is a well established model there - so it is no surprise that Premier Leagues clubs with a strong Spanish influence are adopting a similar approach.  Obviously not every player who goes with a buy back clause will have that clause activated.

[Steero113]

4 minutes ago, YLN said:

These buy back clauses are a fantasy. If he's sold, he's gone.

Emery sounded fairly certain that we'd be able to get him back? Seems a risky thing to say publicly unless it was watertight?

[OutByEaster?]

I'm not sure we'll ever need a buyback clause for Cameron.

[skarroki]

19 hours ago, thabucks said:

Why a new contract ? He signed one last season until 2027 … 

Ignore me then I thought it was up in 2025, didn't want him coming back with 12 months left 

[villan95]

1 hour ago, paul514 said:

He could easily play a part in 20 games this year with the conference league.

Not if Unai doesn't fancy him? I could be wrong but it seems like Unai isn't particularly a fan of poacher types.

[mikeyp102]

35 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I'm not sure we'll ever need a buyback clause for Cameron.

I agree, he’s obviously got some ability and will have a good career, but I think our ambitions and current trajectory will be above where Archer ends up.

[mikeyp102]

33 minutes ago, skarroki said:

Ignore me then I thought it was up in 2025, didn't want him coming back with 12 months left 

He won’t be coming back on the same contract anyway. If we ever activate a buy back clause it’s a new contract for the player.

[gwi1890]

Sheffield Utd are rumoured to be interested 

[Pinebro]

Reality is I wouldn't feel comfortable with Archer starting competitive Prem games. Ergo I don't want him in the squad.

We aim for top 4 now and it's a ruthless business. Sell the kids with potential who aren't good enough right now with a buy back clause like the rest of the top clubs do.