Norwich City

[Naaaaarch]

Nah, Smith was genuinely doing an atrocious job. I know you don't want to hear that said about a local son but it was the truth.

We've been good under Wagner so far but the Burnley match probably came a few weeks early for us if we were going to realistically put up a fight. Fitness throughout our squad is still clearly not yet where it needs to be. As well as fitness the wingers we had available (Dowell and Hernandez) are good for games where we're on the front foot but I'm sure Wagner would have rather been playing the new/recalled players (Marquinos from Arsenal and Tzolis) for a game like this. 

Even with out suicidal tenancies most sides in the league won't be able cope with a high pressing Norwich team. Thankfully Burnley are the only team like Burnley in the division this year. Our next 7 our 8 games are against middle/lower end teams, one would imagine we'll be a lot better equipped to take on Sheffield United after that.

 

 

[rodders0223]

Shock horror

The squad is just shit

[Naaaaarch]

Unfortunately for Smith even during the fabled 9 game unbeaten run performances were rarely there. There was hope that those results would breed confidence but instead results caught up with performances. You can point at the position in the table and pat him on the back all you want but things were obviously going one way.  Our board, more than most in football, have always given their managers the benefit of the doubt. We should have been rid of Smith before the World Cup break.

Wagner's start has been somewhat feast or famine on the pitch but things appear to be moving in the right direction. There's been significant improvements when it comes to style, identity and a lot of individual players. 

There's clearly still an issue with confidence and consistency but I don't think the most optimistic of Norwich fans were expecting an instant fix here. I don't know if you've seen the stats but our 'individual errors leading to shots' numbers are something else.   - https://theathletic.com/4156895/2023/02/06/norwich-errors-krul-burnley/ 

 

[Zatman]

42 minutes ago, Naaaaarch said:

Unfortunately for Smith even during the fabled 9 game unbeaten run performances were rarely there. There was hope that those results would breed confidence but instead results caught up with performances. You can point at the position in the table and pat him on the back all you want but things were obviously going one way.  Our board, more than most in football, have always given their managers the benefit of the doubt. We should have been rid of Smith before the World Cup break.

Wagner's start has been somewhat feast or famine on the pitch but things appear to be moving in the right direction. There's been significant improvements when it comes to style, identity and a lot of individual players. 

There's clearly still an issue with confidence and consistency but I don't think the most optimistic of Norwich fans were expecting an instant fix here. I don't know if you've seen the stats but our 'individual errors leading to shots' numbers are something else.   - https://theathletic.com/4156895/2023/02/06/norwich-errors-krul-burnley/ 

 

Maybe Norwich were not actually any good and let's be honest none of the squad are Premier League material and Smith winning 4 games was a miracle last season

[DCJonah]

I don't think Smith did a good job but clearly the Norwich squad isn't promotion material and it seemed to me the fans weren't with him from the start. 

 

[Naaaaarch]

Last season, sure, the squad wasn't good enough. Nobody really blamed Smith for that, that was all on Stuart Webber.

This year however the issue has been fragile confidence and the inability to turn around negative momentum. Smith was obviously a big part of that. It would be way easier to take if it really was a simple quality issue. Give Kompany this set of players and Smith Burnley's and the table would look significantly different.  A squad made up of our second string and loaned out players would probably be around the playoffs under decent management.

That being said I have no idea if we'll end up being promotion material this season. If we can get over the mental block that we seem to suffer when things aren't going out way in games then we will. If not then even if we make the playoffs I wouldn't expect us to do anything once the pressure is on.

 

[avfc456]

4 hours ago, Naaaaarch said:

Last season, sure, the squad wasn't good enough. Nobody really blamed Smith for that, that was all on Stuart Webber.

This year however the issue has been fragile confidence and the inability to turn around negative momentum. Smith was obviously a big part of that. It would be way easier to take if it really was a simple quality issue. Give Kompany this set of players and Smith Burnley's and the table would look significantly different.  A squad made up of our second string and loaned out players would probably be around the playoffs under decent management.

That being said I have no idea if we'll end up being promotion material this season. If we can get over the mental block that we seem to suffer when things aren't going out way in games then we will. If not then even if we make the playoffs I wouldn't expect us to do anything once the pressure is on.

 

We can relate to that in fairness

[The Fun Factory]

Still, they can probably look forward to playing Ipswich next season, as they seem to be doing remarkably much better since they sacked off Lambert.

[Naaaaarch]

To be fair to agent Lambert they got even worse after him with Paul Cook. They've seemingly got themselves a bit of a gem in Kieran McKenna but it's Ipswich so they'll probably still blow themselves up in the playoffs. If he doesn't promote with them this season I can't imagine it'll be long before he's picked up by a Championship side.

Tribalism aside it does seem that Town are getting a lot more things right behind the scenes these days. I believe they're building towards a category 1 academy as well as other facilities and of course they've been spending quite a lot on their squad. Even if it's not this season I can't imagine it'll be long before they're out of League 1. 

 

 

 

[VillaChris]

Remember Marcelinho Nunez looking decent start of the season, was he injured last few months of DS tenure as that's certainly a player that would fit well into his system. Amazing goal last night v SHA.

[villa89]

On 06/02/2023 at 08:57, Naaaaarch said:

Nah, Smith was genuinely doing an atrocious job. I know you don't want to hear that said about a local son but it was the truth.

He's an vastly over rated manager on here for obvious reasons. In reality he's an average championship level manager. The Norwich job was always going to be a problem for him because they are on the decline and its very hard to sustain the promotion/relegation cycle every two years.

[useless]

"Norwich were fifth when Smith left them, that's not doing an atrocius job"

Norwich were fifth when Smith left them, that's not doing an atrocius job, their squad is nowhere near top two quality and as such will be challenging for play-offs at best, their squad doesn't even give them any special reason to demand that much, whoever is in charge if they don't make top six it's not some massive failure because

They were on a bad run when he was sacked but that's just par for the course for a team like Norwich that are doing well to be top six, will have good form and bad form, it's the same for all teams battling for a place in the top six, the same will happen with Wagner.

In the nine games before Smith's sacking when they were supposedly atrocious, they took eleven points, in the nine games since his sacking they've taken fourteen, hardly a massive improvement, and they've just played Hull, Bristol City, Wigan, and Small Heath, about the easiest run of fixtures you could ask for.

I don't have any strong feelings for Smith's management either way, he's had some good moments and some not so good moments, like most managers, when he was Norwich manager was more interested in them and them doing well to help with Ramsey's development, but am puzzled as to why people talk as if he was some sort of massvie failure at Norwich, he wasn't, overall he did about as well as could be expected.

 

[Naaaaarch]

3 hours ago, VillaChris said:

Remember Marcelinho Nunez looking decent start of the season, was he injured last few months of DS tenure as that's certainly a player that would fit well into his system. Amazing goal last night v SHA.

Nah, he's not missed much through injury. I'm assuming his form has been patchy for any number of reasons. Smith (and Wagner until yesterday) didn't really use a number 10 which is obviously his natural position. He's adapting to a new country and he also played a lot of games for his club in Chile before moving so there's probably some fatigue issues.  He's one of quite a few players in our squad that would probably benefit from Norwich not getting promoted this season.

2 hours ago, useless said:

"Norwich were fifth when Smith left them, that's not doing an atrocius job"

Norwich were fifth when Smith left them, that's not doing an atrocius job, their squad is nowhere near top two quality and as such will be challenging for play-offs at best, their squad doesn't even give them any special reason to demand that much, whoever is in charge if they don't make top six it's not some massive failure because

They were on a bad run when he was sacked but that's just par for the course for a team like Norwich that are doing well to be top six, will have good form and bad form, it's the same for all teams battling for a place in the top six, the same will happen with Wagner.

In the nine games before Smith's sacking when they were supposedly atrocious, they took eleven points, in the nine games since his sacking they've taken fourteen, hardly a massive improvement, and they've just played Hull, Bristol City, Wigan, and Small Heath, about the easiest run of fixtures you could ask for.

I don't have any strong feelings for Smith's management either way, he's had some good moments and some not so good moments, like most managers, when he was Norwich manager was more interested in them and them doing well to help with Ramsey's development, but am puzzled as to why people talk as if he was some sort of massvie failure at Norwich, he wasn't, overall he did about as well as could be expected.

 

In the first 2 of those 9 games we had a caretaker manager who essentially set up in the same way as Smith. The only real tactical difference in those games was that we were hitting it long instead of trying to play through. Wagner has started with 4 wins, 2 losses and a draw in the league, one loss to by far the best side in the league. I think my assertion that we're a good team with confidence issues is backed up by the fact we either been scoring in 3s and 4s or not scoring at all.

The reason people didn't like Smith, for the most part, was the quality of football. It was clear even when we were getting results for a run that it wouldn't sustain without a major improvement. Obviously the improvement didn't come, we got worse and he got fired. Most of the games we won under Smith were on moments of individual quality and not team performances. 

Away from pure footballing stuff there were other things that wouldn't have mattered anywhere near as much as if the football was any sort of good. Fans never took to him as a person, basically. He never really tried to forge a relationship with inside the stadium, basic things like going over and applauding the fans at the end of a game. Always gave off the impression that he didn't really want to be here which is probably true. Whilst that didn't bother me I always found it weird as if you ever met him out and about he was a lovely bloke.

I think 'lost the dressing room' is a bit of a cliché but it was clear that there wasn't much love for Smith within the squad. We've already had various interviews where players have implied that they're much happier in the current setup (training methodology as well as tactical stuff). Jordan Hugill also did an interview on his exit where he spoke about Smith making and breaking promises to him, essentially stringing him along. He claimed Sargent was a winger so he was in the 3 strikers but when it came down to it he played Sargent up top. Then he would apparently have him travel to games where he wasn't making the bench instead of letting him stay with his wife who was almost due. You'll always have unhappy squad players but apparently he was told that he'd get a chance if he put in the performances in pre season, JH was by far our best striker in pre season.

Take the point on not beating any top sides, has been that way all season. Off the top of my head the best side we've beaten were Sunderland and we really didn't deserve that win. On our current trajectory of performance that will change. The overall quality in the league is way below where it was before Covid crippled finances. This Norwich side is not a 'playoffs at best' side.

 

  

3 hours ago, villa89 said:

He's an vastly over rated manager on here for obvious reasons. In reality he's an average championship level manager. The Norwich job was always going to be a problem for him because they are on the decline and its very hard to sustain the promotion/relegation cycle every two years.

Some truth to that. Turning around a relegation super tanker is pretty hard. He needed the quick start.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Naaaaarch

[fightoffyour]

7 hours ago, Naaaaarch said:

Always gave off the impression that he didn't really want to be here which is probably true. Whilst that didn't bother me I always found it weird as if you ever met him out and about he was a lovely bloke.

 

[Naaaaarch]

He was so unimpressed with the gym at Colney he decided to not bother with fitness work for the rest of his time here. It all makes sense now. 

Jokes aside whilst it probably wasn't what he was used to at Villa our training ground is of a pretty decent standard these days. The camerawork in that makes it look as if he's peering into a cupboard  but it's actually a pretty nice gym over two floors with with all the modernity you would expect. We've even got some sci-fi looking cryo-pods too which I'm sure are vital for footballers.

 

Norwich don't really have the cash to do it all in one go so they've been developing the facility step by step. I believe this stuff is going over this coming summer.

https://www.canaries.co.uk/content/club-unveils-future-plans-for-lotus-training-centre-development

[GarethRDR]

If at all goes tits-up with Wagner, they can always get Farke back if (when ) he's sacked off by the end of the season.

[Naaaaarch]

Not been paying the closest attention to his BMG side but if it appears to be similar to his first season here, stuttering. If I was Farke I'd be pointing that out. He's a very system heavy manager so his form could be down to not having the right type of player, of course I don't know if that's the case. Would obviously take him back in a heartbeat if things went wrong here. Of course that's unlikely so we could just sack Webber and give him that role, he always spoke about how he fell into management after originally wanting to be a sporting director. 

Also, this goal. Sara has gone from looking like £6m wasted to one of the best midfielders in the division. 

 

 

[Naaaaarch]

I wasn't planning on bumping this again but it's been a very unique week for Norwich City. Possibly (probably not though) interesting for some of you more general football fans. Long story short the entire spine of our team just got ripped out for the remainder of the season.

On 01/04/2023 at 17:17, Naaaaarch said:

I take back about 70% of the negativity I threw Smith's way over the course of this season. 

The attitude of some of our more experienced players is just rank.  

I posted this in the 'Dean Smith' thread recently. I'll start by saying that when I said 'rank' i didn't mean that the players were acting out and upsetting the group overtly like you see at some clubs. I think the Premier League relegations have just damaged  the abilities of some to handle pressure situations. For those of you that haven't seen us play there was a great stat around March which showed us to be the leaders in Europe in the 'errors leading to shots' table, I think shows that lack of ability to deal with pressure perfectly. There have been other things like players getting involved in handbags far more often but I don't think that's usable scientific data.

So what has actually happened?

Firstly Teemu Pukki  announced that he will not be renewing his contract with the club. Whilst you would think this is a pure negative I don't actually think it is. He's been playing in a system that doesn't suit him all season and his goal record shows this. Both Smith and Wagner have seemingly picked him on reputation when both managers generally prefer their strikers to hold the ball up and link play. We started Sargent up top today and we looked a much better unit. A fresh Pukki from the bench is obviously a great option, especially one that's openly in the shop window.

Either during the previous game or in training Kenny McLean injured his knee ligaments and will be out for the rest of the season. Of all the players I'm going to mention he's probably been in the best form and will be the biggest miss.

Grant Hanley was stretchered off with an achilles injury. Obviously we don't know how bad at this point but going by the amount of pain he was clearly in I'd be shocked if he was back this season and not surprised if he was out a lot longer. Ben Gibson was also substituted off with hamstring injury. He'll presumably will be back at some point.

Whilst It wasn't specifically this week I would say that Angus Gunn's recent performances have also solidified him in the goalkeeping position way ahead of the far more experienced Tim Krul.

Bar Ben Gibson all of those players that can now not play (or will play a lot less in Pukki's case) have between 160 and a couple of hundred appearances for the club. I'm not sure I've ever seen so many core players drop out of a team this late in a season.

It feels somewhat messed up to say considering most of them are through injury but I can't help but think we'll be better off for it as a team. As far as sports psychology goes it's going to be a fascinating couple of months.

 

 

 

 

[HanoiVillan]

I've not watched that much of Norwich this season but when I have it's always seemed like Pukki was either playing badly or not fitting into the system, so that's probably no bad thing, and Krul is pretty old now anyway. In the past Norwich have been good at buying top Championship-level players for cheap prices so it may be no bad thing to have need to freshen things over the summer (assuming there's some money available of course). 

[Naaaaarch]

I know the club created shares as a method of generating cash and upping a new investor's % but I have no idea how much that's worth or if it'll be for transfers.

If I were to guess I'd say probably not though and we'll selling to buy for the most part. Max Aarons and MIlot Rashica are probably the two we'd be looking to sell for more than nominal fees. Maybe we can sell Ben Gibson back to his uncle up at Boro but I can't imagine too many of our older group will go (sadly).

Presuming we don't cheese our way up through the playoffs we'll likely be looking to pull a couple of reasonably priced rabbits out of South American hats.