Dean Smith

[KentVillan]

Any team that is a couple of wins away from Europe is mid table.

As the season wears on, the gaps will get bigger, and we’ll get a clearer sense of how things are going to pan out.

But right now, we are clearly mid table. Form is bad, definitely understand why people are worried, but we’re as mid table as Arsenal or Everton or whoever for the time being.

Bookies have us 9th favourites for relegation on 12/1. That’s about as mid table as it gets.

[avfc1982am]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I think it depends on the context.... we don't want to see a Bowyer/Dier incident.

We've already seen Mings & El Ghazi rubbing foreheads.....No, for me its a managers job.

what would you think would happen if you had a pop at vInnie Jones, Joey Barton or Mick Harford....you can't be selective...you would have one of your boots as an evening meal.

ps I don't really get the last bit...Remi Garde, looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

We've already seen Mings & El Ghazi rubbing foreheads - nobody is advocating players losing it on the pitch.

what would you think would happen if you had a pop at vInnie Jones, Joey Barton or Mick Harford....you can't be selective. -  I don't understand the reference? If you have a pop at anyone for any reason then you need to be aware of consequences. 

ps I don't really get the last bit...Remi Garde, looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights -  Remi Garde was an arse wipe and overly so with regards to discipline. And as such couldn't get a tune out of his team. You treat adults like kids and your on unsteady ground. What I am saying is there is a fine line between being a disciplinarian and being a tw*t.   

[TRO]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

You've moved again! 

So we now have to be top half to be mid-table?

It's unlike you to change your factual viewpoints to suit your narrative.

I'd consider 13th the edge of mid-table - I think 9th-12th would match even a pretty narrow definition of mid-table - if Neves' free kick deflects wide off Targett, we'd be 11th or 12th - that's how narrow the margin is in terms of normal definitions - to claim we're four points away from mid-table is to make a big exaggeration to make a point - it's not factual.

We're in mid-table, or a gnats knacker away at best - has recent form been good? No, but the season is going okay - we're not in a bad spot - the reason those jets are warm is the emotion of the Wolves turnaround and the first half against Arsenal - in reality we've had two bad halves - the bigger picture is that we're okay, we're about where we should be - there will be bad runs and good runs - the jets don't need all the daft heat we've had this week. It doesn't need turning around, it just needs us to continue to make the slow progress we have been - the urge to dive into a crisis has been triggered too soon in my opinion.

 

 

its not about moving, I haven't moved anything......we have a difference of opinion of what midtable is? thats all, nothing about moving factual view points, where did you get that from?.....20 teams, tells me 10th is about right, unless, I am missing something....maybe your definition has a broad band?...I am genuinely struggling to understand you here, or your point....except to call mine out.

so you say 13th is mid table, is that correct?

its you who is all over the place.....you have a collection of places as midtable, thats what is confusing....10 is half of 20....10th is midtable.

I am not changing any factual view point to suit my narrative....I am talking mathematical sense....unless, 13 is declared as half of 20?......there is no exaggeration, thats a figment of your imagination to suppress the point.

The fact is 10th is the half way point in a 20 team league, so by deduction, 10th is mid- point...no if, buts or maybe's......fact.

your last paragraph suggests there is a crisis, who said that?...we are debating and have been since the poor run of 3 defeats and the manner of them, gleaned by our game by game observations, to how we get back on track to winning ways. It seems to me, that in an attempt to discuss that, you have interpreted a crisis, when one was not suggested.....Varying opinions will prevail as where we are and its acceptance....you have yours and I have mine......right now, I am ok, should we slip further, no I wouldn't be ok.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

We've already seen Mings & El Ghazi rubbing foreheads - nobody is advocating players losing it on the pitch.

what would you think would happen if you had a pop at vInnie Jones, Joey Barton or Mick Harford....you can't be selective. -  I don't understand the reference? If you have a pop at anyone for any reason then you need to be aware of consequences. 

ps I don't really get the last bit...Remi Garde, looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights -  Remi Garde was an arse wipe and overly so with regards to discipline. And as such couldn't get a tune out of his team. You treat adults like kids and your on unsteady ground. What I am saying is there is a fine line between being a disciplinarian and being a tw*t.   

then we agree.

[MaVilla]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

You've moved again! 

So we now have to be top half to be mid-table?

It's unlike you to change your factual viewpoints to suit your narrative.

I'd consider 13th the edge of mid-table - I think 9th-12th would match even a pretty narrow definition of mid-table - if Neves' free kick deflects wide off Targett, we'd be 11th or 12th - that's how narrow the margin is in terms of normal definitions - to claim we're four points away from mid-table is to make a big exaggeration to make a point - it's not factual.

We're in mid-table, or a gnats knacker away at best - has recent form been good? No, but the season is going okay - we're not in a bad spot - the reason those jets are warm is the emotion of the Wolves turnaround and the first half against Arsenal - in reality we've had two bad halves - the bigger picture is that we're okay, we're about where we should be - there will be bad runs and good runs - the jets don't need all the daft heat we've had this week. It doesn't need turning around, it just needs us to continue to make the slow progress we have been - the urge to dive into a crisis has been triggered too soon in my opinion.

 

 

this thread has been worth it, just to finally get the phrase "Gnats Knackers" mentioned.

All threads need some Gnats Knackers for sure.

[TomC]

However you choose to define "mid-table," this year, I'd say there are three teams clearly better than everyone else (Liverpool, Chelsea, Man City), and three clearly worse than everyone else (Burnley, Newcastle, and Norwich...though Newcastle are unlikely to stay that way for long). In between those extremes, some will prove a little better than others over the course of the season, but any team can beat any other team on any given week. Whether you end up at the bottom or the top of that large group is going to depend on how you fare against other teams in that group. 7 of our 9 PL matches have been against that group...we've won 2, drawn 1, lost 4.

I analyzed our fixtures through Boxing Day before, and I'm not going into detail again, but in short, if we want to improve, we need to be ruthless against those bottom 3, hope to nick a few points off the top 3, and, most importantly, do well against the middle pack. Our record against the middle pack is what is discouraging.

 

[TRO]

49 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Any team that is a couple of wins away from Europe is mid table.

As the season wears on, the gaps will get bigger, and we’ll get a clearer sense of how things are going to pan out.

But right now, we are clearly mid table. Form is bad, definitely understand why people are worried, but we’re as mid table as Arsenal or Everton or whoever for the time being.

Bookies have us 9th favourites for relegation on 12/1. That’s about as mid table as it gets.

but we are not....you can't be "as" midtable, or mid tableish, if we was we would be in Arsenals place, they are mid table.

I grant you last Season, we was as close as damn it is to swearing, but right now, we are 13th....make of that what you will.

[MrBlack]

9 minutes ago, TRO said:

its not about moving, I haven't moved anything......we have a difference of opinion of what midtable is? thats all, nothing about moving factual view points, where did you get that from?.....20 teams, tells me 10th is about right, unless, I am missing something....maybe your definition has a broad band?...I am genuinely struggling to understand you here, or your point....except to call mine out.

so you say 13th is mid table, is that correct?

its you who is all over the place.....you have a collection of places as midtable, thats what is confusing....10 is half of 20....10th is midtable.

I am not changing any factual view point to suit my narrative....I am talking mathematical sense....unless, 13 is declared as half of 20?......there is no exaggeration, thats a figment of your imagination to suppress the point.

The fact is 10th is the half way point in a 20 team league, so by deduction, 10th is midtable...no if, buts or maybe's......fact.

your last paragraph suggests there is a crisis, who said that?...we are debating and have been since the poor run of 3 defeats and the manner of them, gleaned by our game by game observations, to how we get back on track to winning ways. It seems to me, that in an attempt to discuss that, you have interpreted a crisis, when one was not suggested.....Varying opinions will prevail as where we are and its acceptance....you have yours and I have mine......right now, I am ok, should we slip further, no I wouldn't be ok.

 

 

 

 

 

Mid table is used in football as a term to describe teams in the middle section of the table. 

Top of the table clash...that's teams in the top 4.

Bottom of the table clash, teams in or usually one place above the relegation zone.

 

On topic: Dean's had a shit sandwich to deal with this season. Great looking signings, but suffering injuries and fitness issues galore. With our supposed best players getting up to fitness  we should expect an improvement from where we are. If Dean doesn't over see an improvement over the next few games he is on thin ice

Edited October 27, 2021 by MrBlack

[DCJonah]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

I wouldn't have thought you would.

yes it should come from the manager, thats exactly who it should come from.

I am not saying it doesn't happen....I don't think its ideal....and I disagree,with your view its ok...... it should come from the manager, he is the boss, not them....He gives the instructions and they abide by them or don't, in such a case its him to tell tell them , not another player, not in that context anyway...... a bit of advice, yes, thats fine.....but it wasn't reported like that.

 

Of course it should. I didn't say it shouldn't. I said it shouldn't just come from the manager. If you think in the world of professional sports, that teammates don't aggressively hold each other to account then you're very naive. 

Michael Jordan, considered one of the greatest athletes at all time, physically assaulted and insulted team mates if they didn't live up to his standards. 

Of course you'd find an issue with it though. 

[DCJonah]

1 hour ago, AVFCDAN said:

My biggest issue with Dean right now is how many more 30 million pound players does he need to kick on from where we are now.

There's no doubt in my mind we're worse than last year and that we will finish lower than last years league position as well.

Also how many more big money signings is he allowed before we can say he's underachieving. With this squad and money spent we HAVE to be top half of the table or he's underachieving in my eyes.

Have a look at the spending and wage bills of those teams that consistently finish in the top half. That might give you some indication. 

[DCJonah]

Average points per position 2003-13

This website has the average points needed for each league position in a 10 year period. I've looked at the years since 2013 and it seems pretty similar. 

so the average points for 10th is between 47-50 points. They've put a ppg of 1.28.

We're currently on 1.11. As @OutByEaster?pointed out, without the fine line of Neves freekick deflecting in, we'd be 1.22. 

I think people are just overreacting yet again. Whenever we lose a couple the same panic takes over the thread.

We're right on the edge of a realistic decent season. And that's without us being able to start our strongest team once. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by DCJonah

[DCJonah]

28 minutes ago, TRO said:

but we are not....you can't be "as" midtable, or mid tableish, if we was we would be in Arsenals place, they are mid table.

I grant you last Season, we was as close as damn it is to swearing, but right now, we are 13th....make of that what you will.

55 pts usually gets you 7th or 8th. You could consider us unlucky to be 11th with that amount. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that's probably the highest points total a team in 11th has ever managed. 

[Woody1000]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Ashley Preece is so Pro Dean Smith, so I would be surprised if he had any agenda....just reporting what he saw, is my take on it.....folk will make of it what they will.

Sorry, was a lighthearted post about his JG stance.

I think Dean is covered quite fairly by all the local journalists tbf.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Woody1000 said:

Sorry, was a lighthearted post about his JG stance.

I think Dean is covered quite fairly by all the local journalists tbf.

Its was a general comment  woody, not aimed at anyone.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, DCJonah said:

Of course it should. I didn't say it shouldn't. I said it shouldn't just come from the manager. If you think in the world of professional sports, that teammates don't aggressively hold each other to account then you're very naive. 

Michael Jordan, considered one of the greatest athletes at all time, physically assaulted and insulted team mates if they didn't live up to his standards. 

Of course you'd find an issue with it though. 

only if there's an issue there....much like you.

I would expect Michael Jordan to be challenged in such circumstances, by the boss.....don't care how great he is.

Ferguson, used to pull Roy Keane and in the end pulled the trigger, once and for all....that takes conkers.

Edited October 27, 2021 by TRO

[DCJonah]

54 minutes ago, TRO said:

only if there's an issue there....much like you.

I would expect Michael Jordan to be challenged in such circumstances, by the boss.....don't care how great he is.

Ferguson, used to pull Roy Keane and in the end pulled the trigger, once and for all....that takes conkers.

Do you seriously believe no manager likes having players who will hold others to account this way? 

Ferguson might have got rid of Keane for multiple reasons, but the likes of Neville, Scholes, Ferdinand etc.. would have made sure players knew the standards that were required. 

I seriously hope, after that collapse against wolves and that shit show against arsenal, that we've got players in that changing room who will tell others that it wasn't good enough. 

[jim]

My biggest issue with Smith is every season we have had these huge dips in form where we go on winless runs. We look totally inept for weeks, Smith says all the right things post game but we don’t see an improvement. Eventually something clicks or JG comes back and all is rosey again before the next slump. I can accept inconsistency but not when is it’s long periods of winless runs.

I haven’t been overly impressed with us this season. We were awful against Watford. Brentford and Newcastle we huffed and puffed. We played OK in spells against Chelsea but we lost 3 zip. Everton was poor bar a crazy 20 minutes and an amazing cameo from Bailey. Man Utd was a great result and long overdue but they are poor this season and we still conceded 27 shots. The last three we have got progressively worse and it looks like we are in another of those patches where we don’t see any improvement for weeks.

I hope he turns things around as it means we are back to winning ways but I’m not convinced he can take us any further. 

[Made In Aston]

4 hours ago, MrBlack said:

If Dean doesn't over see an improvement over the next few games he is on thin ice

I don't think so (unless there is a big, sustained downturn in form) . But, at the end of the season, If the team doesn't improve on the previous campaign or regresses then I agree, he will be on thin ice. 

[Mark Albrighton]

5 hours ago, DCJonah said:

55 pts usually gets you 7th or 8th. You could consider us unlucky to be 11th with that amount. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that's probably the highest points total a team in 11th has ever managed. 

Just following on from here, and on the off chance something similar hasn’t already been posted, these are the positions that last season’s 55 points would have beaten over the previous dozen seasons. So for instance, 55 points would have beaten the Baggies 49 points earning them 8th place in 2012/13, but it would have fallen short of 7th placed Liverpool’s 61 points.

This is all fairly academic, but just as a sort of rule of thumb. Yes, that points total would typically put a club in 7th - 9th territory, an European place here and there. I also went back around 20 years and couldn’t see an 11th placed side with 55 or more points.

 

19/20 Sheffield Utd 9th - 54 points

18/19 Everton 8th - 54 points

17/18 Burnley 7th - 54 points 

16/17 Southampton 8th - 46 points

15/16 Stoke 9th - 51 points

14/15 Stoke 9th - 54 points

13/14 Stoke 9th - 50 points

12/13 WBA 8th - 49 points

11/12 Liverpool 8th - 52 points

10/11 Everton 7th - 54 points 

09/10 Small Heath 9th - 50 points

08/09 Fulham 7th - 53 points

 

And for those wondering, the answer is yes, for a moment I did feel I was going to be sucked into a never ending Stoke City 9th placed vortex.

[DCJonah]

1 hour ago, jim said:

My biggest issue with Smith is every season we have had these huge dips in form where we go on winless runs. We look totally inept for weeks, Smith says all the right things post game but we don’t see an improvement. Eventually something clicks or JG comes back and all is rosey again before the next slump. I can accept inconsistency but not when is it’s long periods of winless runs.

I haven’t been overly impressed with us this season. We were awful against Watford. Brentford and Newcastle we huffed and puffed. We played OK in spells against Chelsea but we lost 3 zip. Everton was poor bar a crazy 20 minutes and an amazing cameo from Bailey. Man Utd was a great result and long overdue but they are poor this season and we still conceded 27 shots. The last three we have got progressively worse and it looks like we are in another of those patches where we don’t see any improvement for weeks.

I hope he turns things around as it means we are back to winning ways but I’m not convinced he can take us any further. 

It's 3 games without a win.  

That happened to Everton twice last season. It happened to West Ham twice last season. It happened 3 times for Leeds. It happened twice to Arsenal. It happened 3 times to wolves last season. It happened 3 times to spurs last season. It happened twice to Leicester.

Why do those most critical continue to pretend like Dean Smith is so different to others? That our negative issues are so unique? 

I've lost track of the amount of times I've said it, but people seem to ignore decades of premier league history to convince themselves they're right to moan.