Dean Smith

[briny_ear]

3 minutes ago, vreitti said:

I don't really want to get into to the same old debate regarding Smith and the progress we've made, because that's been done to death. Furthermore, I agree with a lot of what you say. However, Leeds are only 2 points ahead of us, with a game more played. Surely, we've done just as well as they? 

But the comparison is between first seasons so it would between Leeds this season and us last season. At the equivalent stage we were 18th and had 27 points from 33 games. Leeds have managed 47 points from 33 games in their first season back.

[DCJonah]

Just now, briny_ear said:

But the comparison is between first seasons so it would between Leeds this season and us last season. At the equivalent stage we were 18th and had 27 points from 33 games. Leeds have managed 47 points from 33 games in their first season back.

You also need to compare how both teams came up and the changes they needed to make in the summer. 

Shouldn't take anything away from what Leeds have done but the situations were very different. Not sure why that gets ignored. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

7 minutes ago, Mjvilla said:

But Jose throws himself around and shows passion on the touchline.  Deano should do more of this, apparently.

If my manager doesn't smash things... is he even a manager?

[vreitti]

Just now, briny_ear said:

But the comparison is between first seasons so it would between Leeds this season and us last season. At the equivalent stage we were 18th and had 27 points from 33 games. Leeds have managed 47 points from 33 games in their first season back.

Okay, in that case I'd like to argue they had a far superior, and more settled squad than ours. I think what we achieved last season, was somewhat of a miracle. Likewise, what we did first half of this season. 

[briny_ear]

Just now, DCJonah said:

You also need to compare how both teams came up and the changes they needed to make in the summer. 

Shouldn't take anything away from what Leeds have done but the situations were very different. Not sure why that gets ignored. 

Sure, I really don’t want to get into the Leeds debate. I was just trying to address what seemed to be a misinterpretation of the figures in the post I was quoting.

Personally I think the comparisons with Leeds take us up a blind alley. We are our own club with our own history and we must judge our performance on those terms.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

6 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

You also need to compare how both teams came up and the changes they needed to make in the summer. 

Shouldn't take anything away from what Leeds have done but the situations were very different. Not sure why that gets ignored. 

I'll admit that, alot of my desperation to wanting us to finish above Leeds, is spurred on by their unbearable social media fans, and the absolute wankfest the Media had about them coming up. Pretty much every predicted table had them magically finishing mid table, and us barely surviving again, as if we were a non entity.

Might be childish, but all of that wound me up no end.

Edited April 26, 2021 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[briny_ear]

3 minutes ago, vreitti said:

Okay, in that case I'd like to argue they had a far superior, and more settled squad than ours. I think what we achieved last season, was somewhat of a miracle. Likewise, what we did first half of this season. 

See my comment above to @DCJonah.

[Mister_a]

1 minute ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I'll admit that, alot of my desperation to wanting us to finish above Leeds, is spurred on by their unbearable social media fans, and the absolute wankfest the Media had about them coming up. Pretty much every predicted table had them finishing mid table, and us barely surviving again, as if we were a non entity.

Might be childish, but all of that wound me up no end.

I'd rather us learn how to do throw in's than finish above Leeds

[vreitti]

Just now, briny_ear said:

See my comment above to @DCJonah.

Absolutely, I agree with your view. 

[TRO]

32 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

Don't believe my point of view has changed maybe just expanded, as the issues are still there in the midfield, however I'm trying to look at the whole season holistically. 

I don't know whether COVID had an impact on the squad at all, but I also don't expect Smith to come out and say it had either way. What I do know is the players would have lost some fitness while they quarantined and while they put in a strong performance for the month after they played two games a week, Smith didn't rotate the squad enough and they looked emotionally flat for the following month.

While we have a similar viewpoint on the midfield, I believe the problem lies a little deeper in that we lack a leader. They all seem to run around like headless chooks at times, they are good players, but need someone to give a bit of direction. we lack that intelligent player in the midfield who reads the game. Luiz has the ability to make the trains run, but he's not a leader yet and not a proper DM.

I wasn't on the Smith bandwagon when he was appointed, thought there were better choices, still do. But I have to give credit to the man to where he has taken the club, he learns from his mistakes, puts good people around him and I see enough credible issues to say that the current playing style is not entirely of his own making, but there needs to be improvements.

With regards to the attack, I'm not convinced Watkins is an out and out striker, he is great in attack, but I believe in some games we need something different. Although I am convinced he's playing tired and has been for a while.

These are the challenges for Smith and the club over the summer.

I couldn't agree more.

I would like to us us pursue the midfield in the summer and bring in as you say some Nous, a Gareth Barry type, to lead the team.

Personally, I would like to see a tad more aggression about our play, more fortitude in what we do and what we are.....I like Dean, I don't get the "paint by numbers" approach to the subs, Keinan on after 10 minutes consistently, i don't understand, surely each game has varying tactical requirements.....I know Dean is still learning, but so is every manager.

I like the harmony and stablilty Dean brings, I must confess.....but I equally think, you have to let folk know sometimes, they are pissing you off.

The game itself, is about emotions.....sometimes, we have to react accordingly....its not a game of chess or snooker.

 

[MrBlack]

17 minutes ago, TRO said:

but that is not the view shared by the manager.....not saying you are wrong.....The manager refutes the notion that Covid or fatigue, plays a part.

If the manager, wanted to hide behind that, it would have given him a legitimate excuse.....but he chose not to abide by that.

Dean is an honorable man, and one I trust, to tell the truth.....He may have his views as to why the form dip, but clearly keeping his cards close to his chest.

I heard him say the covid outbreak hasn't had an impact.  I'm guessing they've tested everyone's vO2 max and found it's largely consistent with what it was pre covid, they're probably showing the same stamina data in training. But I think the point @Rightdm00was making (correct me if wrong) is that it isn't a direct outcome of covid, and mental fatigue might not obviously show in physical data metrics.

I put it down to the indirect fact that we've had games stacked up as a result, and had to play them more often than we would have otherwise. This has also been impacted by other teams having games delayed against us by their own outbreaks.  Throw in injuries/suspensions and our lack of squad depth, and that is almost certainly having an impact on our team fatigue levels, be it mental or otherwise.

A monumental effort from most of the players at the back end of last season, a very short pre season, a build up of fixtures, and it stands to reason that the majority of the players will be reaching the limits of what they can do at the top end of their performance bracket.

I do worry for our international players that will feature in the Euro's (and consequently world cups) as they will be getting virtually no real break over the course of 2 years.

McGinn is the most prime example, and Dean has to take some blame. Played every game for us, played virtually every minute for Scotland, it's no surprise his levels have dropped off lately. He needs a rest, and annoyingly its one position in the squad where we do have cover.

I think this, along with playing Barkely, are my two biggest gripes with Dean at at moment.

[DaveAV1]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

There may be a tell tale sign there apart from us being safe....The bottom teams get about you, we don't like that....They deny us the crucial space we need to function and it disrupts our ideal game.

I think in general we’re a bit too easy to bully. The last time I think we played really well was the first half against Burnley, when I thought we were brilliant. The second half they bullied us and it was a different game.
 

That was almost our season summed up in 90 minutes. Hopefully the club as a whole know, or quickly find out what is the main reason for this and get it sorted out. I’m sure there will be additions to the playing squad, whether there are changes to the coaching set up only time will tell.
 

I’m confident that our current owners have us set up to be able to make an informed assessment and have a vision of where they expect us to be currently and a plan of where we should be in the future and how to get there. It’ll certainly be more scientific than emotional. 

[sparrow1988]

15 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

If my manager doesn't smash things... is he even a manager?

At least we've got a player with a bit of passion and willing to damage equipment...

 

[VillaFaninLondon]

57 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said:

I made this mention in the match thread. The same 2 or 3 kept making the same mistakes.  I don't think it's a talent issue as we have seen them perform at high levels for multiple weeks in the past.  For me, mistakes like that are usually due to to a lack of focus or mental fatigue. Which, given the pandemic, project restart, no pre season, and a compressed fixture schedule is really not that surprising. 

I can't find the tweet now but I saw that Villa have been averaging a match every 5.5 days since the covid outbreak. That's almost a european campaign fixture spread and we definitely don't have the squad for that.  I think most of our team has ran it's race.  Mentally they are just wiped. This is where having a squad would come in handy but we just aren't there yet in terms of our rebuild. 

Yes, we still need a stronger squad, that much is clear. It is not only about the manager and I really hope the likes of McGinn (as much as I love him for what he has done for us) and Traore are merely squad players next season as not consistent enough to be playing week in week out and are two of the biggest culprits for us losing the ball so easily. Midfield would be the area to really pinpoint in the summer (DM, RW, creative mid) as that seems to be the area where a lot of our play comes undone. 

 

For me, assuming we finish 11th or 12th this season (which I think is looking most likely), these need to be our goals for the next 3 seasons:

• 21/22 - top half finish (e.g.8th, 9th, 10th)
• 22/23 - Europa League qualification
• 23/24 - qualify for European competition + go far in Europa

 

This assumes continual investment into the playing squad. These are ambitious targets, but not far off what the owners probably are looking for in their 5-year plan. With the Greedy 6 + Leeds, W'Ham, Leicester, Wolves & possibly 1 or 2 others, those challenges won't be easy which is why we need a really good summer window imo.

 

One positive from last night was having Wesley back in the squad. With Davis finally scoring a PL goal, we may actually have a few options up front for the rest of the season.

Edited April 26, 2021 by VillaFaninLondon

[TRO]

27 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

There are lots of ways to present facts. 

I just don't see how you can judge progress with in a season. How many teams don't have dips? Or always end their season on an upward trajectory? I found that an odd way to focus on progress. The only real benchmark is season to season. Within a season there are so many variable that it becomes subjective and what happens is what we see where people try to use specific data to justify their bias. If West Ham finished 7th do you think their fans would moan about their progress declining throughout the season or claim they hadn't made progress?

No Leeds haven't done too bad. Same as sheff u and wolves. The challenge is maintaining that, as other clubs have found out. So whilst Leeds have adapted to the prem quicker than we did, it would be foolish to ignore a lot of the reasons behind that. 

I'm so sure our initial form wasn't going to be maintained because we'd be in the champions league by this point. And I think in the history of the prem only Leicester have made a year on year improvement as massive as that. I'd call that realistic than defeatist. 

We absolutely are weak at certain things. We give the ball away too easily and we seem to allowing individual errors to be creeping back into our performances. We also seem far too weak physically at times and have limited ideas in the final third. I think there's obvious areas for improvements, but again, I'd expect that for a midtable team, especially one in their 2nd season back in the prem. 

I have no doubt that again, next season, relegation will not be a worry. And if I'm wrong and somehow it is, I also have no doubt that Dean will be replaced. 

You are simply agreeing with me there, but doing your level best to present it that you aren't.

I think, some fans would comment if West Ham's form dipped like our has, yes I do....I don't trawl, other fan sites, but I would expect Wolves fans to be less than happy, despite losing such an influential striker.

Our initial 4 games wasn't going to be maintained, sure, but the second quartile on my list of 14 points wasn't unrealistic, perhaps 18 was....but as you rightly say, its the performances too, not just the results.

The things you say about our weaknesses are bang on, but when i say them, I am biased....you seem to have this thing where only you can make critical references with self impunity, but when others say it, it gets up your nose.

I don't want Dean to be replaced, I want him to get it right......I am anxious for us to get things right, the very things what YOU have mentioned, when managers get replaced at Villa, its usually when things have been bad for so long, we are not like Chelsea, when soon as a chink is noticed, the Guillotine is being rolled out....They are ruthless, we are not.....but I don't want it to get to that, hence my comments.

 

 

 

[Awol]

29 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I'll admit that, alot of my desperation to wanting us to finish above Leeds, is spurred on by their unbearable social media fans, and the absolute wankfest the Media had about them coming up. Pretty much every predicted table had them magically finishing mid table, and us barely surviving again, as if we were a non entity.

Might be childish, but all of that wound me up no end.

They are divs, and they probably will finish above us this season, but I’d suggest that given our owners we’re on a different track.

So long as they retain their interest and commitment I think the return of Villa as a force in English football is inevitable. I hope it’s under Deano and see no reason to change anything, but that’s almost irrelevant. It’s happening. 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Awol

[TRO]

42 minutes ago, vreitti said:

I don't really want to get into to the same old debate regarding Smith and the progress we've made, because that's been done to death. Furthermore, I agree with a lot of what you say. However, Leeds are only 2 points ahead of us, with a game more played. Surely, we've done just as well as they? 

Their first season......our second.

Its not the same old debate, its questioning the self indulgence we sometimes cling to.....we are doing ok, in terms of overall progress, in terms of local progress of the season, we are not.

[TRO]

43 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said:

Is Dean this first manager to shield his players and not hide behind an excuse. Also, I'm of the school that blaming things out if your control is pointless. You should focus on the items you can fix. 

It seems Dean tends to have that line of thought as well. So he isn't going to pull a Jose blaming the players, the lack of signing "x" player, or whatever other excuse he can find. I love that Dean steps up there takes the blame and moves on. Villa should be blessed to have a manager like him. 

So what you're saying is he was lying about Covid? to protect the players.....and it really is an issue....is that right?

The manager overall is not in question here, so don't twist it in to a case that it is, we are talking about what he said when asked about Covid.....I am happy with him in general, but he is equally blessed to be with Villa,too.

[TRO]

37 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I think in general we’re a bit too easy to bully. The last time I think we played really well was the first half against Burnley, when I thought we were brilliant. The second half they bullied us and it was a different game.
 

That was almost our season summed up in 90 minutes. Hopefully the club as a whole know, or quickly find out what is the main reason for this and get it sorted out. I’m sure there will be additions to the playing squad, whether there are changes to the coaching set up only time will tell.
 

I’m confident that our current owners have us set up to be able to make an informed assessment and have a vision of where they expect us to be currently and a plan of where we should be in the future and how to get there. It’ll certainly be more scientific than emotional. 

Bang on for me Dave......but I see no signs from the club, that this will be addressed.

I think its just accepted as part and parcel of the way we play.

[vreitti]

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

Their first season......our second.

Sure, I misunderstood this at first, but as far as comparisons go, it just isn't that simple in my view. 

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its not the same old debate, its questioning the self indulgence we sometimes cling to.....we are doing ok, in terms of overall progress, in terms of local progress of the season, we are not.

I get what you're saying, and it's a real pity we didn't manage to challenge the top6 better, considering our position at the turn of the year... However, the yearly progress is there for all to see. I just have a hard time partitioning progress within a season. It might prove a narrow point you want to make, but I guess I'm not too bothered by that point for the moment.