Dean Smith

[thabucks]

Now the season is over bar pride he has got to start blooding Kessler and Jaden Philogene-Bidace at least - No excuses! As I said before rather petulantly and over dramatically I’ll be against Smith if he doesn’t play these talented youngsters before the season is out. No evidence to suggest he won’t though and I’m not being critical of Smith but did  I read a surprising stat earlier, that even though we have the youngest starting XI - we have one one lowest minutes played per U21 aged player in the league at only 1.4% of domestic action thus far.
https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/b5wp/2020/wp333/en/

Quote

A report conducted by CIES Football Observatory collated data from clubs all across the Premier League, to find out the “percentage of domestic league minutes by footballers who had not yet turned 21 at the time of the matches played this season”.

In it, Villa have the eighth-worst record in terms of giving minutes to it’s U21 players, with just 1.4% being taken up by those who fit that criteria – in comparison, Wolves, who have the best record in the division, have handed out a whopping 16.2% of their minutes to U21s.

When Cash was injured surely Kessler deserved an appearance from the bench to inspire him for next season even more by giving him a taster? With Trez out, surely Jaden Philogene-Bidace at 19 now is ready to play 1st team football? Then in Carney we have a player who is supposed to be in a similar ilk to Bellingham - who at 17 is playing for Dortmund in the Champs League QTR Finals and scoring a gem oh and England international ... We should start blooding them over next few games 10minutes here and there as we are where we should be and will finish where we deserve to. The benefit outweighs the risk for me. In Smith I trust ... 

Edited April 14, 2021 by thabucks

[GingerCollins29]

12 minutes ago, thabucks said:

Now the season is over bar pride he has got to start blooding Kessler and Bidace-Philogene. No excuses and as I said before rather over dramatically I’ll be against Smith if he doesn’t. I read a surprising stat earlier that even though we have the youngest starting XI we have one one lowest minutes played per  U21 aged player in the league at only 1.4% of domestic action. 

Especially as trez is now out for the season

[barry'sboots]

4 hours ago, nick76 said:

I maybe wrong on Davis, I maybe wrong on the kids.  Smith might be wrong on both as well.  You have to concede you maybe wrong as well and there is a lot riding on it from many angles and the phrase ‘what have we got to lose’.....a lot!

I have conceded several times on this thread that my suggestions are just that and that they may not work to improve us (although we argued a long time about Davis before he got his chance v Fulham and he certainly did improve us on that day and I believe would, given the chance, going forward) BUT I have said that what we are trying, repeatedly, at the minute definitely is not working.  I think that there are several of us on here that want Smith to try some different things to see if we can get a spark back but also recognising that he has limited creative/attacking options.  But he does have a few and trying them, for me, can only give upside on what we are seeing at the minute OR, at worst, no downside.

You are right, I don't think we have a lot to lose at the minute.  You seem to think we have ... what is it that you think we have to lose that is so important?

4 hours ago, nick76 said:

Again you don’t understand, being ready and performance is different. 

I do understand what ready means but I don't get your point - you'll have to explain what you mean here.  As I say, I do understand that a player might not be as ready as we would like, but equally I don't think that there is any damage in giving a kid an opportunity in the first team in a non-pressure environment (which is where I think we are at the minute) when the other options are adding nothing anyway.  Do you think this could damage JPB longer term?  I would argue that the kids that played v Liverpool - who are supposedly the "less ready" kids (not training with the first team) - certainly didn't look overawed playing against a reasonably strong top men's team and I don't believe that experience will have done them any harm?  Barry looked good but is probably not ready to play men's football yet as his physique is too slight BUT I think he will have gained massively from that experience.  The club also thought this, I assume, or they would have just withdrawn from the FA Cup.  I think it also has positives in player retention - youngsters seeing other youngsters getting a first team chance will be more inclined to stick with a club, as opposed to a Sancho scenario where young players think they have to move to get first team opportunities.

4 hours ago, nick76 said:

Oh because that’s the only way we can evaluate him.  

It's certainly not the only way we can evaluate him but I do think it would be a useful exercise with certain players and help understand how they could cope with men's football.

4 hours ago, nick76 said:

Our place in the league is important.  

Our place in the league is important but I am not sure that your argument to retain a 4-3-3 with AEG out wide is going to help get a more advantageous place in the league, certainly on the evidence of the last 10 or so games.

4 hours ago, nick76 said:

Smith and his coaching staff make the call.  If they thought he was ready they would use him.  Do I always think he’s right? Definitely not but somebody on the internet has very little info, seen only a bit of player compared an experienced, professional coaching staff that sees him daily, with stats, has a development plan and sees him play in training with the first team and has no history of holding back youth....I’m leaning heavily towards Smiths opinion on this one.

Yeah he could be wrong but the difference between a youth player coming through and a choice of a player like Davis are very different discussions and reasons.  If you can’t understand that I don’t know what to tell you.

These are of course different points.  I am saying that I think Smith is wrong with Davis - and I think you agree.  I think he could also be wrong on JPB BUT he might not be.  My point is that if he gave it a try I can't see JPB performing any worse than AEG has over the last 10 or so games.  I literally cannot think of any meaningful contribution from the latter during that period.  I'm really not sure, given AEG's performances, why you believe that this is so controversial?

4 hours ago, nick76 said:

I spent years/decades watching the various youths, reserves at Villa, seeing players come through, travelling to the various venues and seeing kids come through.  I don’t assume to know your history but from my history and from seeing my amateurish view of the levels and the years, what Smith is doing is making sense, backed up by Ramsey coming through this season.  Maybe you know youth development better than me, I understand that maybe the case.  I understand players like Gareth Barry and Rooney come through earlier and quicker.  I understand how poor we are at the moment but I also understand the difference between being ready and bringing in just because he’d be better than AEG.

I get that, in a normal season, it might not be the right time to blood such a player but we are in such a bad run of form (certainly from an attacking/creative perspective) that this is not a normal period.  I also think that there is very little pressure, as I explained, and I don't think it would have the potential to harm our points tally/league position as we are just way of reasonable offensive performance levels at the minute. 

[nick76]

10 minutes ago, thabucks said:

Now the season is over bar pride

But this is not true.  If we want to attract players in the summer, the better the league position will enhance our attraction to potential targets.  Finishing on a high and being a top 10 team or maybe 8th or 9th above so of the teams that will be competing for the same players is far better than finishing 11th or12th on a whimper.  It might also be perceived that early in the season was a blip and this was our true form or if we finish on a high that this current form was a blip.

This season more than any recently is a perception season to potential players looking to see if they want to join us.  Getting quality in or not.  It was rumoured some players weren’t interested last summer because of our positioning, so now we are looking even higher in quality we need to finish higher in the league as possible, so the season is far from over.

I think you are going to be massively disappointed expecting the kids in before the end of the season given they aren’t even making the bench at the moment really.  So I guess in a couple of months you’ll be against Smith.

[nick76]

1 hour ago, barry'sboots said:

 

I think we are just not going to agree.  Re the whats left of the season points, see comment to thabucks above, the remainder of the season is so key.

The rest we are just creating longer and longer comments to each basically repeating ourselves as we've done several times recently.  Essentially you dont agree with my points or dont understand where I'm coming from and what I think is so plain to see and it seems where Smith is coming from and he looks like he wont change for the remainder of the season and you are laying out an argument which you think is plain to see from your point of view which I think is heavily flawed.  We seem to never move closer to agreement.

As for Davis we agree about his Fulham performance, and should played some time against Liverpool but where we differ is that I dont see him good enough for Villa and would be best if he is sold in the summer.  Weirdly given I am his biggest critic, Smith seems, from a perception point of view, value him less than i do.

I think you are going to be disappointed though because he doesnt look like he's going to play the kids you want this season and secondly Davis doesnt look like he will get time you are hoping.  I know you will keep raising the point and some people agree with you about all your views and some people will disagree with you, given the nature of the forum.  I think at some point you are going to have to accept that. I will leave you to it.

[foreveryoung]

10 hours ago, nick76 said:

You are constantly being negative. I laid out a reasonable argument and never said it was a real reason just that we don’t know at this point to rule it out but timing is more on point than anything else.  

Your wise wisdom and knowledge of infectious diseases has concluded its utter bollox or is it that you’re constantly negative and looking for any excuse to be even more negative.  it’s who you are at the moment but that’s fine, you think and comment as you like, it’s just plain weird and sad.

I'm hardly saying it's not Covid it's Smith, read my posts. I have said previous, there are many other reasons for poor form. You maybe looking for the negatives from certain posters a little too much. There's 2 people standing out on this forum who are over defensive on Smith, ( 1 person admitting it) you can't say many on here are over negative or even critical including ,myself,

[tomav84]

i think the only way we see barry, kessler etc this season is if our league position mathematically cannot change on the last game or 2 of the season. as long as we have league positions to play for we will field our strongest team

barry looks to have something about him for sure, but theres nothing of the lad. watching yesterday's rout, they technically were great...but they still looked like kids. i didn't really see any that remotely had the physique that indicated they were ready to play PL football

[nick76]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

I'm hardly saying it's not Covid it's Smith, read my posts. I have said previous, there are many other reasons for poor form. You maybe looking for the negatives from certain posters a little too much. There's 2 people standing out on this forum who are over defensive on Smith, ( 1 person admitting it) you can't say many on here are over negative or even critical including ,myself,

Yes I can, you are over negative, constantly negative.

Just because you think you aren’t being over negative doesn’t mean that’s true.  They are a couple that are worse but you are up there, if you don’t see that doesn’t mean it’s not true.

Edited April 15, 2021 by nick76

[Tommo_b]

10 points off a europa spot with a game in hand with 8 games still to go...

It’s a stretch sure... but let’s not pretend our season is over for a second, would you want to give up on a title race if you were only 10 points behind with a game in hand?

Lets not write the season off, let’s try encouraging the team to push on! 

[foreveryoung]

4 hours ago, nick76 said:

Yes I can, you are over negative, constantly negative.

Just because you think you aren’t being over negative doesn’t mean that’s true.  They are a couple that are worse but you are up there, if you don’t see that doesn’t mean it’s not true.

Shocking, same 2 always trying to rubbish my opinion and call me out as over negative. Tut tut!

[VillanousOne]

47 minutes ago, Tommo_b said:

10 points off a europa spot with a game in hand with 8 games still to go...

It’s a stretch sure... but let’s not pretend our season is over for a second, would you want to give up on a title race if you were only 10 points behind with a game in hand?

Lets not write the season off, let’s try encouraging the team to push on! 

Lets look at the fixtures left:

Man City: Yes any game is winnable but without Grealish I can't see us winning against a team we have an absolutely comical record against

West Brom: A team fighting for the lives and on form, we would do well to get a draw

Everton (x2): Still chasing a Europa place - but their form is patchy, we could maybe get a win or draw as we have to play them twice, again without Grealish this will be tough.

Man Utd: See Man City

Palace: It will be two teams who by this time probably have nothing to play for, has draw written all over it. Maybe a win if Grealish is back. Also depends on whether Saha is playing.

Spurs: See Man City, again maybe a chance to get something if Grealish is back

Chelsea: I can't see us getting anything out of this match, they are a different team under Tuchel.

A lot of things can change for all teams involved in the final run in and our season seems to depend on whether we can win games without Grealish, or whether Grealish recovers in time to rescue anything from the run in.

I think we would be lucky to pick up six points.

I am not in charge (thank god) but I hope Dean will use the injury situation to try new tactics and maybe blood some youth, would rather we at least tried something different and still lost rather than the same formation, subs and tactics and losing.

 

 

[nick76]

29 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Shocking, same 2 always trying to rubbish my opinion and call me out as over negative. Tut tut!

[VillanousOne]

El Ghazi --- Davis ---- Watkins
                    Traore
          McGinn (or Sanson) - Nakamba

I would love to see us set up like this, I think Traore will be much better centrally than on the wing.

El Ghazi -- Watkins -- Cash
                 Traore
       McGinn (or Sanson) - Nakamba

And play Elmo or Kesler at right back

Won't happen for many good reasons, but would still like it if we tried.

Edited April 15, 2021 by VillanousOne

[tomav84]

30 minutes ago, VillanousOne said:

Lets look at the fixtures left:

Man City: Yes any game is winnable but without Grealish I can't see us winning against a team we have an absolutely comical record against

West Brom: A team fighting for the lives and on form, we would do well to get a draw

Everton (x2): Still chasing a Europa place - but their form is patchy, we could maybe get a win or draw as we have to play them twice, again without Grealish this will be tough.

Man Utd: See Man City

Palace: It will be two teams who by this time probably have nothing to play for, has draw written all over it. Maybe a win if Grealish is back. Also depends on whether Saha is playing.

Spurs: See Man City, again maybe a chance to get something if Grealish is back

Chelsea: I can't see us getting anything out of this match, they are a different team under Tuchel.

A lot of things can change for all teams involved in the final run in and our season seems to depend on whether we can win games without Grealish, or whether Grealish recovers in time to rescue anything from the run in.

I think we would be lucky to pick up six points.

I am not in charge (thank god) but I hope Dean will use the injury situation to try new tactics and maybe blood some youth, would rather we at least tried something different and still lost rather than the same formation, subs and tactics and losing.

 

 

i think we'll beat both baggies and palace but don't disagree with much else. but surprises happen

the run in of leeds and wolves is more concerning. in terms of favourable fixtures

[AV82]

Love you Dean.

[foreveryoung]

7 minutes ago, AV82 said:

Love you Dean.

Is that you Nick76

[barry'sboots]

6 hours ago, tomav84 said:

i think the only way we see barry, kessler etc this season is if our league position mathematically cannot change on the last game or 2 of the season. as long as we have league positions to play for we will field our strongest team

barry looks to have something about him for sure, but theres nothing of the lad. watching yesterday's rout, they technically were great...but they still looked like kids. i didn't really see any that remotely had the physique that indicated they were ready to play PL football

There is clearly two factions in this argument and we appear to be at polar ends of the spectrum.

One who will back Smith to the hilt on nearly every decision, believing that he is in the experienced football manager and therefore calls everything right.  This group typically argues that we have a limited squad but have made good progress and we should all be grateful for that and keep the faith.

And the other group, that largely recognises (I certainly do) the dramatic improvement year on year but also recognise that we have spent £200m on incomings and have probably the most naturally talented attacking player in the league, so our performance this season is not quite as miraculous as some might make out.  We also think Smith is getting a number of things wrong at the minute.

The argument that the first group rolls out, I guess in support of Smith, for not blooding youngsters is that he sees them in training and knows where they are but also that we need to optimise our league position for prize money and attracting better players.  My argument, and a lot of those that support blooding certain youngsters (including Davis for me - I still class him as a youngster!), is that I don't think we can do any worse than we are currently doing with some of the experienced pros, certainly on the evidence of the last 10 games or so.  As such, blooding certain youngsters is beneficial in terms of their development BUT may also be beneficial in terms of points collected.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

Been away for a couple days... I see nothing has changed.

Anybody ever realise we are literally having the same exact posts/counter posts every single day?

If groundhog Day was a forum. Lol

We need a match asap, so we can have the exact same circular arguments, but with the latest data.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[nick76]

3 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

There is clearly two factions in this argument and we appear to be at polar ends of the spectrum.

One who will back Smith to the hilt on nearly every decision, believing that he is in the experienced football manager and therefore calls everything right.  This group typically argues that we have a limited squad but have made good progress and we should all be grateful for that and keep the faith.

And the other group, that largely recognises (I certainly do) the dramatic improvement year on year but also recognise that we have spent £200m on incomings and have probably the most naturally talented attacking player in the league, so our performance this season is not quite as miraculous as some might make out.  We also think Smith is getting a number of things wrong at the minute.

The argument that the first group rolls out, I guess in support of Smith, for not blooding youngsters is that he sees them in training and knows where they are but also that we need to optimise our league position for prize money and attracting better players.  My argument, and a lot of those that support blooding certain youngsters (including Davis for me - I still class him as a youngster!), is that I don't think we can do any worse than we are currently doing with some of the experienced pros, certainly on the evidence of the last 10 games or so.  As such, blooding certain youngsters is beneficial in terms of their development BUT may also be beneficial in terms of points collected.

My issue is your so called side supporters think they are right and logical and what you call our side that isn’t.

You fail to realise or at least don’t portray in your arguments as above, that we probably agree with 90% you say  but about 10% we have a differing view. Yet when you argue you highlight the 90% as on your side to support your argument and try to show us in a negative light that we think Smith can do no wrong when we have many times said things that refute that and that we have said things that would agree with probably 90% of the same things as you.  It’s very disingenuous!

Your paragraph 2 & 3 is BS and misrepresents my view and some others as I have said above, why not just say paragraphs 1 and 4 because that is the disagreement and discussion.

[nick76]

17 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Been away for a couple days... I see nothing has changed.

Anybody ever realise we are literally having the same exact posts/counterparts every single day?

If groundhog Day was a forum. Lol

We need a match asap, so we can have the exact same circular arguments, but with the latest data.

 

This will be the same argument for the rest of the season, I’m just expecting it to get worse as games go on because we see the others side but we just have different viewpoints but we are like two dogs arguing over a ball not willing to give up.

Edited April 15, 2021 by nick76