Dean Smith

[Zatman]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I think their with and without Philips record is the most damning. Would be interesting  know what if is. They still try and play the same way but he really does make them tick. 

According to Flashscore they won 2 and lost 6 as well

I wonder do Leeds fans call Bielsa one dimensional or reliant on a star man when they are poor without Phillips and Raphinha

[villalad21]

11 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Crystal Palace beat them 4-1 so did Leicester and Crawley beat them 3- 0. Suppose the general play was fine in them trashings

Very low sample size.

But still i'd bet if Leeds were without Rafinha for 10 games they would still dominate possession, create chances and score goals in most games.

Fact is we look like a team that would be battling relegation without Jack, and that's not good enough. Simple as.

Edited April 14, 2021 by villalad21

[MrBlack]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

I would say 80% of form has gone because Jack isn't playing, there ya go I said it. He makes the team tick, he calls for the ball, he creates, he picks up the pace of the game. An before you say form dipped before we lost him, yes it did, but he was obviously carrying the injury for sometime, to me probably making it worse. I'm not sure why many don't want to admit this, as we all can't wait for him to return to start winning a few again can we, an admitted, we can hardly win a game without him and it shows.

You can add to that list that he creates time and space for other players to do their thing as well. He is a huge loss, and we've not been around in the PL long enough or spent enough on any player to have someone replace him when he's out. 

To me, this is a problem, but it's not one I'm holding against Dean or our owners. He is a once in a generation player and given enough time I trust our leadership to get it right. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by MrBlack

[tomav84]

49 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

One player out shouldn't mean the whole system falls apart.

You don't build a team around one player. No top managers do that.

Don't think anyone would disagree with you in the notion that we'd be a weaker team without Jack Grealish. But we should still be able to see good football without him.

Take Leeds as an example. Rafinha is arguably their best player by far. If you took him out they wouldn't suddenly turn into shit and play a whole different way. I'm pretty certain of it.

rafinha is a good player. jack is a fking elite level, once in a generation, genius of a player who before his injury was 4th in whoscored's ratings of top players in europe. above ronaldo. above haaland. there's a chasm of difference between the jack and raphina. if jack played for leeds, and got injured, they'd go to shit too...because even your beloved bielsa would build the team around him. because he's a good manager and it makes sense to do that when you have a player of his ability in your ranks.

we were obviously going to seriously suffer without him...i don't get why you're so shocked.

if smith had tried other tactics when we had jack fit that didn't utilise him as effectively, we'd have been worse off for it and potentially would've been in a genuine relegation battle now he's injured

[nick76]

38 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Very low sample size.

But still i'd bet if Leeds were without Rafinha for 10 games they would still dominate possession, create chances and score goals in most games.

Fact is we look like a team that would be battling relegation without Jack, and that's not good enough. Simple as.

Despite you not wanting to believe it, somebody has shown on this site that is not true by a recent form league table.

You’re so in love with Leeds and Bielsa for some reason despite being a Villa fan. Repeated over and over again.  Surely if you wanted to be impressed by someone it would be a lot better than Leeds and Bielsa.  You can see why some joke that you’re a Leeds fan given your obsession with them and their manager.  It’s very bizarre.

[villalad21]

1 minute ago, nick76 said:

Despite you not wanting to believe it, somebody has shown on this site that is not true by a recent form league table.

You’re so in love with Leeds and Bielsa for some reason despite being a Villa fan. Repeated over and over again.  Surely if you wanted to be impressed by someone it would be a lot better than Leeds and Bielsa.  You can see why some joke that you’re a Leeds fan given your obsession with them and their manager.  It’s very bizarre.

I'm not in love with Leeds. I am a massive Bielsa fan. Am i not entitled to be that?

I like managers who get their results through a well refined system rather than managers who heavily rely on individual brilliance.

[Mjvilla]

28 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

I'm not in love with Leeds. I am a massive Bielsa fan. Am i not entitled to be that?

I like managers who get their results through a well refined system rather than managers who heavily rely on individual brilliance.

Of course, you can be a Bielsa fan. I think he's done a very good job at Leeds. That's fair.

Using Bielsa as a stick to beat Dean with is not fair. When they, over the course of their tenures, have both done equally impressive jobs.

[MrBlack]

5 minutes ago, Mjvilla said:

Of course, you can be a Bielsa fan. I think he's done a very good job at Leeds. That's fair.

Using Bielsa as a stick to beat Dean with is not fair. When they, over the course of their tenures, have both done equally impressive jobs.

You quoted the nonsense. Experience comes into it too.

Dean - manager for 10 years. Bielsa - manager for 40 years.

 

[Mjvilla]

4 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

You quoted the nonsense. Experience comes into it too.

Dean - manager for 10 years. Bielsa - manager for 40 years.

 

That's a fair point too. It's clear Deano is learning at this level. From last season to this. And throughout this season.

His latest lesson is learning to get a result when his best player is missing, more regularly. I think, against Liverpool, we looked closer to the decent side from the first half of the season. Obviously not that standard but getting there. Konsas free header, hitting the post too. We could've scored 3 in the end. I don't think it's a stretch to say heading into the final 15, we were beginning to control the game and looked the more likely.

I think, if jack continues to miss, we will see gradual improvement from this set of players. I really do hope we do, will show how flexible deano can be. And how he's learnt more lessons. 

 

[sharkyvilla]

12 hours ago, barry'sboots said:

Exactly this.  Even Wrighty was saying that we were the cool kids on the block.  No-one is saying that now!!

I can't understand how a midfield three that looked so good against Liverpool and Arsenal (a) can now look so bad. Can Luiz - who was great from Restart to Christmas - suddenly have turned into the poor player we have seen this year OR is he just trying to deter Citeh from exercising the buy-back??  Where has the SJM from the Championship and before his injury last season gone -I thought he was back after the first 10 games or so.  And I was sceptical of Barkley but massively positive after his first few games but now the poor kid looks like he couldn't get into Remi Garde's Villa??  This is just mad?!

As said earlier, Smith is always honest in his assessment of games where we have played poor but it has happened for ten games plus in a row now and not once has he offered a reason why?

Luiz's form changed almost overnight after the covid break.  It could just be a coincidence and he just reverted back to the mean, or he got the virus a bit worse than the others.  I think the midfield problem is just that without Jack there isn't anyone who can take the ball forward so their options are more limited.  Jack would usually occupy two of their defenders too.  Ultimately opposition teams in the PL learn and try to combat your style and it would naturally make it harder to play as well, particularly if your options for mixing things up have certain weaknesses to their game that could be exploited as well.

Ultimately we have developed a really good first XI and many of us said during the great run that it was very unlikely for the same players to keep it up all season and not get injured.  You would have to be incredibly lucky to do that.  We also predicted that people would lose their shit when the downturn happened because they can't put things into context.  

[barry'sboots]

13 hours ago, nick76 said:

But I’m more interested why you think that something working well is now not working well?

That's my question Nick.  I can't get my head around why something that was working so well is now so poor.  If it were one player then you could point to a drop off in form but that just doesn't make sense across three international players at the same time??  Equally, SJM seems to be dragging the Scots through games when on international duty (I might be wrong here as I am only seeing highlights and press coverage).

I don't have the answer for this, but I am more worried that Smith and his team don't either and they are the ones that are paid the big bucks to sort this kind of thing out.

I appreciate that Smith is honest and doesn't make excuses but equally I think it annoys fans when a manager keeps pointing out what is obvious as if its nothing to do with him without giving - as others have said - some kind of hope or confidence that he is going to address it. 

[barry'sboots]

12 hours ago, nick76 said:

There is load of risk to be fair.  The higher we end up the better perception wise we are to potential targets.  Showing we are a top ten team is better than being 12th.  Finishing on a high or decent is better than a poor finish to potential targets.  It’s only one factor but is a factor in joining a team on the up than a team that started well but are fading.

You answer your own question re youth, he sees the all the time and doesn’t think they are ready.  You keep saying about JPB and AEG but obviously Smith doesn’t think he’s ready.  You do because you see some clips, possibly some lower level games whereas Smith sees them daily, probably mixing in training with the first team and believes they are not ready.  

The point I don’t understand, if Smith felt they, let’s say JPB, could do a better job than AEG then why would he not play them?

I am with you that AEG has been poor recently.  I just don’t understand what reason apart from Smith not think JPB is ready that he would not play him. I feel you want more of an answer than that.  It maybe irrelevant AEGs form, it may be that Smith and coaching staff feel that JPB isn’t ready for the first team based on Smith and co experience, what they see of him on the training ground with first team players, his development plan...and whatever other things they look at.  I feel like you want it to be a conspiracy or reluctance of Smith to play kids who are ready or something.  

Why can it not just be, despite us playing poorly and some players being really poor, that Smith and his vast coaching team have closer evaluated somebody like JPB at close quarters daily, with everything from first team training, training with the U23’s, development plan, physical stats, coaches and everything....that JPB is not ready for first team football? Compared to some on here who have seen some clips and a few games of football at a much lower level and concluded that he should be given time because a first teamer is playing poor.

I just can’t wrap my head why people can’t see the above.

We all want youth to come through, it been great seeing Ramsey come through this season despite some mixed performances and Smith and co thought he was ready and benched him when he faded.  That was good management.  Can’t we trust somewhat what Smiths doing by how he’s done with Ramsey?  If he had a history of ignoring youth I would understand your point but he doesn’t plus we have one of the youngest teams in the PL.

I understand your point about finishing higher up the table and if the team were doing okay then I would buy this argument.  But my point is, in terms of points, we couldn't do much worse with the suggested changes than we are doing without them.

This thread is clearly about Smith.  Where we have a fundamental disagreement, I guess, is that you seem to think that Smith always makes the right decision, whereas a lot of us on here are questioning that, certainly over his ability to change from his standard 4-3-3 with the standard three wide players in his first team.

What I have constantly said is that you may be right - the suggested changes may not deliver upside/JPB may not be ready - BUT, and I think there are a fair few that agree, they cannot produce any worse performances than we are getting currently and might, as shown with Davis' intro v Fulham, inspire something better!

[nick76]

22 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

That's my question Nick.  I can't get my head around why something that was working so well is now so poor.  If it were one player then you could point to a drop off in form but that just doesn't make sense across three international players at the same time??  Equally, SJM seems to be dragging the Scots through games when on international duty (I might be wrong here as I am only seeing highlights and press coverage).

I don't have the answer for this, but I am more worried that Smith and his team don't either and they are the ones that are paid the big bucks to sort this kind of thing out.

I appreciate that Smith is honest and doesn't make excuses but equally I think it annoys fans when a manager keeps pointing out what is obvious as if its nothing to do with him without giving - as others have said - some kind of hope or confidence that he is going to address it. 

Thanks for the response I was genuinely interested.

I feel positive that Smith will turn it around solely based on him doing it before.  If he doesn’t after a summer of quality transfers and a good number of games in the new season then I will raise questions myself on him but until then he has credit in the bank with me and even our current form isn’t relegation form as somebody above proved a few pages back.

As for Smiths words, I enjoy his honesty but after many rubbish managers I take what they say as a pinch of salt including Smith because I want to see it on the pitch and not promises before matches or interviews after matches.  Don’t tell me, show me kind of attitude.

[nick76]

3 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

I understand your point about finishing higher up the table and if the team were doing okay then I would buy this argument.  But my point is, in terms of points, we couldn't do much worse with the suggested changes than we are doing without them.

This thread is clearly about Smith.  Where we have a fundamental disagreement, I guess, is that you seem to think that Smith always makes the right decision, whereas a lot of us on here are questioning that, certainly over his ability to change from his standard 4-3-3 with the standard three wide players in his first team.

What I have constantly said is that you may be right - the suggested changes may not deliver upside/JPB may not be ready - BUT, and I think there are a fair few that agree, they cannot produce any worse performances than we are getting currently and might, as shown with Davis' intro v Fulham, inspire something better!

I have never said Smith is always right in fact I do say when I think is wrong.  I think you are still missing my point that I tried to write in length about why Smith might not think somebody like JPB is ready.  You are just black and white about playing or not when it isn’t that simple.

Davis is a different story about a choice of a player or not.  We obviously don’t agree generally about Davis or about his future or potential.  As I said he played well against Fulham and thought given our current choices should have been given a chance against Liverpool.

[barry'sboots]

1 hour ago, sharkyvilla said:

Luiz's form changed almost overnight after the covid break.  It could just be a coincidence and he just reverted back to the mean, or he got the virus a bit worse than the others.  I think the midfield problem is just that without Jack there isn't anyone who can take the ball forward so their options are more limited.  Jack would usually occupy two of their defenders too.  Ultimately opposition teams in the PL learn and try to combat your style and it would naturally make it harder to play as well, particularly if your options for mixing things up have certain weaknesses to their game that could be exploited as well.

Ultimately we have developed a really good first XI and many of us said during the great run that it was very unlikely for the same players to keep it up all season and not get injured.  You would have to be incredibly lucky to do that.  We also predicted that people would lose their shit when the downturn happened because they can't put things into context.  

I don't think many on the Smith thread are "losing their shit" as you put it - that might be the case on the matchday thread where people get a bit emotional.  We are just debating what's gone wrong and giving our thoughts as to how we might reverse or try to reverse it - it is a discussion forum after all.

Not many of us expected us to start as strongly as we did, but not many of us expected us to be performing as badly as we are now, even accounting for the loss of Jack.

Players may have been affected by COVID - I guess we will never know - but there are players across the league who have had COVID and not been materially affected.  Even St Maximin, who supposedly had it bad, now looks like he is firing again.  It would be highly statistically improbable that our three starting CM'ers all have Long COVID??

[nick76]

5 hours ago, villalad21 said:

I'm not in love with Leeds. I am a massive Bielsa fan. Am i not entitled to be that?

I like managers who get their results through a well refined system rather than managers who heavily rely on individual brilliance.

Results? Well refined system?  Like the Kardashian of football stats, loads of admirers but no substance.  The only thing he’s won in Europe is the a second level trophy (Championship) in 20 years, teams play football like I did as a kid which is ‘I can score more than you’.  

Yes some high profile managers admire him but all he’s done in Europe is leave controversy at his previous clubs and won one second level trophy.  Coaching is poor because all he focuses on is attack and as many pundits have said he doesn’t seem to care if he concedes.  

If you care about winning, about all round offensive and defensive coaching then Bielsa isn’t your manager.  If you are a neutral then he’s great to watch because it means goals, it’s like watching kids football at a professional level where all you care about is attacking.

I can name about 10 or 20 managers I’d prefer over him l. I’d never want Bielsa to be our manager.  But good for you that you are a massive fan, he’s a poor coach but a great entertainer for a neutral.

[foreveryoung]

17 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

I'm afraid it's been decided it's all Smith's fault. No other reasons will be entertained which can become draining on a discussion forum.

 

7 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

 

You can add the above post to this too.

[YouUnastanFren]

44 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Results? Well refined system?  Like the Kardashian of football stats, loads of admirers but no substance.  The only thing he’s won in Europe is the a second level trophy (Championship) in 20 years, teams play football like I did as a kid which is ‘I can score more than you’.  

Yes some high profile managers admire him but all he’s done in Europe is leave controversy at his previous clubs and won one second level trophy.  Coaching is poor because all he focuses on is attack and as many pundits have said he doesn’t seem to care if he concedes.  

If you care about winning, about all round offensive and defensive coaching then Bielsa isn’t your manager.  If you are a neutral then he’s great to watch because it means goals, it’s like watching kids football at a professional level where all you care about is attacking.

I can name about 10 or 20 managers I’d prefer over him l. I’d never want Bielsa to be our manager.  But good for you that you are a massive fan, he’s a poor coach but a great entertainer for a neutral.

I think that's slightly harsh, Bielsa is a good coach doing very well. Escaping the championship is a great achievement and so is avoiding relegation. The main reason I would be very nervous if he was here though is the backroom setup he demanded when he joined. IIRC he is paid a relative fortune but then to offset that he personally employs the entire backroom team, rather than the club doing it.

The reason that would worry me is that when he leaves it will be scorched earth, zero continuity and Leeds will have to build an entire new backroom staff structure very quickly. With his track record of stubbornness and fall outs that could happen with relatively little warning.

Our current set up is much more modular. If DS left then I assume that ROK would follow but everyone else would be fairly likely to remain. That would mean we could plug a new coach in without having to rebuild the entire footballing staff of the club.

And also, for all Bielsa's success at Leeds, when DS started with us the were at the top of the Championship (in large part thanks to Bielsa) and we were about 15th. Any extra money we've spent to get to where we currently are has pretty much been offset by the extra year of PL revenue we've managed to get ahead of Leeds by being promoted instantly as well.

[nick76]

9 minutes ago, YouUnastanFren said:

I think that's slightly harsh, Bielsa is a good coach doing very well. Escaping the championship is a great achievement and so is avoiding relegation. The main reason I would be very nervous if he was here though is the backroom setup he demanded when he joined. IIRC he is paid a relative fortune but then to offset that he personally employs the entire backroom team, rather than the club doing it.

The reason that would worry me is that when he leaves it will be scorched earth, zero continuity and Leeds will have to build an entire new backroom staff structure very quickly. With his track record of stubbornness and fall outs that could happen with relatively little warning.

Our current set up is much more modular. If DS left then I assume that ROK would follow but everyone else would be fairly likely to remain. That would mean we could plug a new coach in without having to rebuild the entire footballing staff of the club.

And also, for all Bielsa's success at Leeds, when DS started with us the were at the top of the Championship (in large part thanks to Bielsa) and we were about 15th. Any extra money we've spent to get to where we currently are has pretty much been offset by the extra year of PL revenue we've managed to get ahead of Leeds by being promoted instantly as well.

I agree with everything except the first sentence.  I don’t think he’s a good coach, I think he’s a really good offensive coach but an incredibly poor defensive coach.  He’s a great entertainer of football but being a great coach is not about being good at one part and ignoring another part.  The top coaches are great in both areas.

Additionally the originally poster gives Smith so much grief yet is a massive fan of Bielsa but look at the difference between the clubs results doesn’t justify the disparity in admiration.

[sharkyvilla]

3 hours ago, barry'sboots said:

I don't think many on the Smith thread are "losing their shit" as you put it - that might be the case on the matchday thread where people get a bit emotional.  We are just debating what's gone wrong and giving our thoughts as to how we might reverse or try to reverse it - it is a discussion forum after all.

Not many of us expected us to start as strongly as we did, but not many of us expected us to be performing as badly as we are now, even accounting for the loss of Jack.

Players may have been affected by COVID - I guess we will never know - but there are players across the league who have had COVID and not been materially affected.  Even St Maximin, who supposedly had it bad, now looks like he is firing again.  It would be highly statistically improbable that our three starting CM'ers all have Long COVID??

I think it's a bit early to judge Saint-Maximin based on a couple of cameos totalling 45 minutes after being out injured compared to playing 90 minutes every week.  Regarding the last sentence I only consider us to have two starting central midfielders in Doug and McGinn with the others rotating, even if they haven't suffered from covid the training ground did close down for a fair while, the team has lost its balance in general with Jack missing plus Cash for a while too, plus opposition making better plans, having more to play for etc.  Really you only have to be a few % off your best to start struggling for points at this level because the league is so competitive.  It's why I'm confident it won't take a lot to get back to our better form hopefully before the end of the season but obviously getting Jack fit is a big part of that.  Otherwise it's a case of grinding out results until we can buy a few more quality players for the squad.