Dean Smith

[VillaFaninLondon]

I think the talk of him being sacked (even if it did come from Twitter) is ridiculous, even though I have my doubts about him. In terms of where we are in the league and the season as a whole, we have met expectations if not slightly surpassed them. Our aim was I believe to finish between 8th and 12th and that last season was unacceptable, so we've clearly done that this season and should finish between those 2 positions.

 

However, my beef with Dean is over two things:

1) No defined style of play - is it really that difficult to develop a positive brand of football like Brighton/Fulham/Leeds play? Why can't he coach his team to pass the ball correctly despite having better players than the three aforementioned teams and why do we constantly revert to hoofing it?

2) Over-reliance on Grealish - Grealish's return helped us move from midtable in the Champ to getting promoted, if he'd got injured for any length of period last season we would have gone down, it's that simple. We weren't exactly playing great before he got injured but it's clear we're struggling to create anything without him. I get that he's a phenomenal player but Leicester won 5-0 today without Maddison and Barnes, and Iheanacho (who has barely played all season) scored a hat trick. If DS gets another summer of investment which I suspect he will, he has to start building a quality squad which doesn't rely on one player.

 

If I were the owners I'd be pushing the manager to try to resolve the two issues above next season. Finishing top half again next season wouldn't be a catastrophe and would keep us stable, but getting into Europe should be the aim if we want Jack to stick around for longer and to also take this club back to where it should be. And in order to do that we have to find more consistency by beating the teams at the lower end of the table.

[nick76]

48 minutes ago, TRO said:

But nick, its a bit more than just a dip in form,

But it’s exactly what it is.  They are the same players who are suffering form, a few key players out and general fatigue of a small squad.  What else do you think it is?

48 minutes ago, TRO said:

We can all report on games or ignore them and keep dining out on the good games and the season as a whole.....but IF we want to progress, we need to be more consistent and replicate the form that got the media excited.....we have gone back to last seasons form and we need to snap out of it.

Who isn’t reporting on the individual game? I commented my thoughts on the game in the reactions thread and on here.  What ive commented since in when people have gone over the top about the bigger picture.

As for the second part of that paragraph I refer back to my point above of a dip in form, key players out, general fatigue and small squad.  I mean Ollie looks knackered, Jack looked off the boil pre injury....I can go on.  We haven’t had the chance to rest/rotate players in a condensed season.

Plus all other teams have had a bad spell....Man City at the beginning of the season for about ten games and Liverpool have lost six home games on the trot.

48 minutes ago, TRO said:

Dean needs to find a reason, why we are not now playing some of the best football in the country, its not just a cycle.....there are good reasons, if folk care to look for them.

Completely agree, and do you not think Dean is looking for solutions? Has he not proved in the past at Villa that he turns it around.  That we then generally go on a run, that we improve materially.  He’s done it before, nothing suggests he won’t do it again and he should have credit in the bank to allow him to do it.

Edited March 14, 2021 by nick76

[TRO]

I think it is foolish to be talking about replacing Dean Smith, when we have a chieved a points haul that we have....and managed at some point in the season to have played some fine football.

However, I see enough things to keep Dean busy....giving the ball away cheaply has to be a priority.

He has to get a grip of some of our shortfalls....and not just dismiss them as abad day at the office.

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, nick76 said:

But it’s exactly what it is.  They are the same players who are suffering form, a few key players out and general fatigue of a small squad.  What else do you think it is?

Who isn’t reporting on the individual game? I commented my thoughts on the game in the reactions thread and on here.  What ive commented since in when people have gone over the top about the bigger picture.

As for the second part of that paragraph I refer back to my point above of a dip in form, key players out, general fatigue and small squad.  I mean Ollie looks knackered, Jack looked off the boil pre injury....I can go on.  We haven’t had the chance to rest/rotate players in a condensed season.

Plus all other teams have had a bad spell....Man City at the beginning of the season for about ten games and Liverpool have lost six home games on the trot.

Completely agree, and do you not think Dean is looking for solutions? Has he not proved in the past at Villa that he turns it around.  That we then generally go on a run, that we improve materially.  He’s done it before, nothing suggests he won’t do it again and he should have credit in the bank to allow him to do it.

Yeah, I accept that.

I just hope we get sufficient quality in, in the summer.

[nick76]

22 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

1) No defined style of play - is it really that difficult to develop a positive brand of football like Brighton/Fulham/Leeds play? Why can't he coach his team to pass the ball correctly despite having better players than the three aforementioned teams and why do we constantly revert to hoofing it

Re my last post but weren’t we one of the most positive attractive teams for half a season but your posting about the last half dozen games.

Brighton, Fulham and Leeds you want us to be like? Are you serious?  Fulham and Brighton are fighting relegation and Leeds have lost 4 out of the last 6, and brand of football is ‘that I can score more than you’ but generally don’t.

25 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

2) Over-reliance on Grealish - Grealish's return helped us move from midtable in the Champ to getting promoted, if he'd got injured for any length of period last season we would have gone down, it's that simple. We weren't exactly playing great before he got injured but it's clear we're struggling to create anything without him. I get that he's a phenomenal player but Leicester won 5-0 today without Maddison and Barnes, and Iheanacho (who has barely played all season) scored a hat trick. If DS gets another summer of investment which I suspect he will, he has to start building a quality squad which doesn't rely on one player.

We have a superstar! Only second season back, what do you expect? Of course we are going to rely on him.  

We have also improved with a solid, very solid back five....we have Ollie who will be great but is running out of steam at the moment but it’s only his first season with no back up so no surprising.  

Dean has always said it would take four or five windows to get the squad, which is understandable.

We just avoided relegation last season so our recruitment was awesome, we were though never going to get somebody of Jacks level so hence why we still rely on him even with the new players because he is superstar.

As for the comparison to Leicester, they are an established premiership team who have won the league, able to buy some stars on the back of that and with all the money they got.  Comparing us to them is very unfair.  Maybe in 2 or 3 years time but not where we’ve come from in the last few years compared to them winning the league and European competition and the ability to buy players on the back of that.

[nick76]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

Yeah, I accept that.

I just hope we get sufficient quality in, in the summer.

That for me is over to the owners and board.  Given their history with us, Lange and co being brought in and already investment I'm excited what that will be but you never know.  We will buy superstars, young with massive potential, aged quality players or average signings.  We all have our guesses especially based on comments from the management and board in previous windows but with Covid financial impact and FFP which might impact it, our competition for players and financial investment is huge to move to next level....it's a big ask but so far the owners havent failed us so who knows.  I'm excited!

[useless]

We've averaged less than a point a game when Grealish hasn't played over the last three seasons going back to when we were in the championship and had one of the division's better squads if not the best, so should have been able to cope better without him. We shouldn't be that reliant on one player after spending £200m plus, I doubt there's any other club who has a similar difference in form based on whether one player is playing or not.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, nick76 said:

That for me is over to the owners and board.  Given their history with us, Lange and co being brought in and already investment I'm excited what that will be but you never know.  We will buy superstars, young with massive potential, aged quality players or average signings.  We all have our guesses especially based on comments from the management and board in previous windows but with Covid financial impact and FFP which might impact it, our competition for players and financial investment is huge to move to next level....it's a big ask but so far the owners havent failed us so who knows.  I'm excited!

My only worry is we haven't had the best record for expensive signings.

its easy to buy a joelinton or a Haller.....fingers crossed we don't.

[DCJonah]

48 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

I think the talk of him being sacked (even if it did come from Twitter) is ridiculous, even though I have my doubts about him. In terms of where we are in the league and the season as a whole, we have met expectations if not slightly surpassed them. Our aim was I believe to finish between 8th and 12th and that last season was unacceptable, so we've clearly done that this season and should finish between those 2 positions.

 

However, my beef with Dean is over two things:

1) No defined style of play - is it really that difficult to develop a positive brand of football like Brighton/Fulham/Leeds play? Why can't he coach his team to pass the ball correctly despite having better players than the three aforementioned teams and why do we constantly revert to hoofing it?

2) Over-reliance on Grealish - Grealish's return helped us move from midtable in the Champ to getting promoted, if he'd got injured for any length of period last season we would have gone down, it's that simple. We weren't exactly playing great before he got injured but it's clear we're struggling to create anything without him. I get that he's a phenomenal player but Leicester won 5-0 today without Maddison and Barnes, and Iheanacho (who has barely played all season) scored a hat trick. If DS gets another summer of investment which I suspect he will, he has to start building a quality squad which doesn't rely on one player.

 

If I were the owners I'd be pushing the manager to try to resolve the two issues above next season. Finishing top half again next season wouldn't be a catastrophe and would keep us stable, but getting into Europe should be the aim if we want Jack to stick around for longer and to also take this club back to where it should be. And in order to do that we have to find more consistency by beating the teams at the lower end of the table.

When was the last time we had European football? To demand it, in our 3rd season back in the league is a bit OTT. Look at the years of premier league football and investment the main teams aiming for that have over us? Also the quality of players they're able to attract over us. 

Everton can't consistently do it, with Ancellotti, yet Dean is going to be looked down on if he doesn't deliver it in record time. 

 

[PieFacE]

I'd like to see us try some different things now that the season is over. 

Try a 4-4-2 with Davis and Watkins playing together. The old big man little man combination. 

Or try 3-5-2. See if it helps us get out the rut were in without Jack. 

Do we need to do it? Absolutely not. Would it make the end of the season a bit more interesting? For me personally it would. 

[DCJonah]

3 minutes ago, useless said:

We've averaged less than a point a game when Grealish hasn't played over the last three seasons going back to when we were in the championship and had one of the division's better squads if not the best, so should have been able to cope better without him. We shouldn't be that reliant on one player after spending £200m plus, I doubt there's any other club who has a similar difference in form based on whether one player is playing or not.

How many other teams have a player of Jack's quality? 

You can point to the money but you're a villa fan, you saw the transfer window we had to have last summer and the amount of players we needed to sign.

[OutByEaster?]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

My only worry is we haven't had the best record for expensive signings.

its easy to buy a joelinton or a Haller.....fingers crossed we don't.

I'm happy that the best examples of us not being good with expensive signings are the bad expensive signings of other teams!

[sharkyvilla]

6 minutes ago, useless said:

We've averaged less than a point a game when Grealish hasn't played over the last three seasons going back to when we were in the championship and had one of the division's better squads if not the best, so should have been able to cope better without him. We shouldn't be that reliant on one player after spending £200m plus, I doubt there's any other club who has a similar difference in form based on whether one player is playing or not.

We averaged less than a point a game last season with Grealish playing nearly every game too.

[nick76]

10 minutes ago, useless said:

We've averaged less than a point a game when Grealish hasn't played over the last three seasons going back to when we were in the championship and had one of the division's better squads if not the best, so should have been able to cope better without him. We shouldn't be that reliant on one player after spending £200m plus, I doubt there's any other club who has a similar difference in form based on whether one player is playing or not.

Fernandes and Man U do!

[VillaFaninLondon]

20 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Re my last post but weren’t we one of the most positive attractive teams for half a season but your posting about the last half dozen games.

Brighton, Fulham and Leeds you want us to be like? Are you serious?  Fulham and Brighton are fighting relegation and Leeds have lost 4 out of the last 6, and brand of football is ‘that I can score more than you’ but generally don’t.

We have a superstar! Only second season back, what do you expect? Of course we are going to rely on him.  

We have also improved with a solid, very solid back five....we have Ollie who will be great but is running out of steam at the moment but it’s only his first season with no back up so no surprising.  

Dean has always said it would take four or five windows to get the squad, which is understandable.

We just avoided relegation last season so our recruitment was awesome, we were though never going to get somebody of Jacks level so hence why we still rely on him even with the new players because he is superstar.

As for the comparison to Leicester, they are an established premiership team who have won the league, able to buy some stars on the back of that and with all the money they got.  Comparing us to them is very unfair.  Maybe in 2 or 3 years time but not where we’ve come from in the last few years compared to them winning the league and European competition and the ability to buy players on the back of that.

Yes I want us to be able to retain the ball better like those sides, don't you? It's not all about results to be able to see the bigger picture of where we go as a team - when we had MON as manager and were finishing top 6 I didn't like our style of play and I said so as much at the time. 

 

IF we want to become a really top side in this division (which I hope we do), then we have to be able to keep the ball better, beat the press better, press ourselves better, and stop playing long balls. I honestly couldn't see who was more of a long ball team than us or Bruce's Newcastle on Friday night. 

 

I agree with you on the first third of the season, we were playing progressive, exciting, attacking football, and also pragmatic by playing more counter attack against the likes of Liverpool and Arse. But now we've regressed, and did so even before Jack got injured - we're not just talking half a dozen games here, almost double that which is not just a mini slump. 

 

And yes, I realise Jack is very good at football. But I care mostly about the club and when we don't have Jack we look a shadow of the team we are. I think Dean needs to try structuring the team so it is not so reliant on one individual - but of course I understand that this will take more investment. That's why I said this summer window is important to attract a higher calibre of player.

 

Leicester is where we should be aiming to get to. They are a very good team and we're a way off that at the moment I understand. But my general point was that Rodgers can get players like Iheanacho who has generally been in the doldrums this season to perform when they need someone to get them goals. Plus he's changed the formation to suit the personnel he has available at his disposal currently, even playing Iheanacho and Vardy together. And that's impressive management. 

[useless]

I think it's a sikeological thing with the players as much as anything, probably more so when we were in the championship. When Grealish returns we'll improve not just because he will improve us with his play, but just having him in the team will give the other players more believe in themselves, we need to find a way for them to keep that level of believe in themselves even when he's not on the pitch.

To be fair we probably have seen a steady improvement with him out of the team over the last three years, need to sign the right players in the summer so we become even less reliant on him.

If he was actually to leave in the summer I think that would be a different thing, as then we'd have the whole of preseason to prepare without him and come up with a plan, a player missing games halfway through the season is different from them leaving before the season has already began and you've got time to prepare, so think we could still do well without Grealish in that scenario, not that I'm expecting him to leave.

[VillaFaninLondon]

23 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

When was the last time we had European football? To demand it, in our 3rd season back in the league is a bit OTT. Look at the years of premier league football and investment the main teams aiming for that have over us? Also the quality of players they're able to attract over us. 

Everton can't consistently do it, with Ancellotti, yet Dean is going to be looked down on if he doesn't deliver it in record time. 

 

The last time was the 10/11 season after we finished 6th in 09/10. Unfortunately in none of our European seasons at that time did we ever make a real fist of it, except in 08/09 when MON decided to play the kids against CSKA Moscow in the knockout stages. 

 

No, I am not saying I expect us to get there next season. I'm saying if we can't get to that level then I'm not sure Jack would stay beyond the end of next season. And given how reliant we've been on him for 3 years now, unless that suddenly changes next season which I hope it will, then post-Jack Grealish Aston Villa could be a stressful time.

 

I believe we'll be in competition with the traditional big 6 as well as Leicester, Everton, West Ham and probably Wolves (who will be better next season). I believe the aim should be to try to get European football but there are a lot of teams to compete with. 

 

If we finish in the top 10 this season, the players we can attract this summer will be significantly higher than last summer. Reportedly some players were put off coming to Villa last summer because they thought we'd be battling relegation again. This summer should be a lot different. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by VillaFaninLondon

[Dave-R]

21 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

Yes I want us to be able to retain the ball better like those sides, don't you? It's not all about results to be able to see the bigger picture of where we go as a team - when we had MON as manager and were finishing top 6 I didn't like our style of play and I said so as much at the time. 

 

IF we want to become a really top side in this division (which I hope we do), then we have to be able to keep the ball better, beat the press better, press ourselves better, and stop playing long balls. I honestly couldn't see who was more of a long ball team than us or Bruce's Newcastle on Friday night. 

 

I agree with you on the first third of the season, we were playing progressive, exciting, attacking football, and also pragmatic by playing more counter attack against the likes of Liverpool and Arse. But now we've regressed, and did so even before Jack got injured - we're not just talking half a dozen games here, almost double that which is not just a mini slump. 

 

And yes, I realise Jack is very good at football. But I care mostly about the club and when we don't have Jack we look a shadow of the team we are. I think Dean needs to try structuring the team so it is not so reliant on one individual - but of course I understand that this will take more investment. That's why I said this summer window is important to attract a higher calibre of player.

 

Leicester is where we should be aiming to get to. They are a very good team and we're a way off that at the moment I understand. But my general point was that Rodgers can get players like Iheanacho who has generally been in the doldrums this season to perform when they need someone to get them goals. Plus he's changed the formation to suit the personnel he has available at his disposal currently, even playing Iheanacho and Vardy together. And that's impressive management. 

The words join them if you can't beat them I think happened against BruceCastle

[foreveryoung]

As I have seen the last few games, Smith has not really changed the formation to suit without Jack. All day long we should have started to play making Watkins the focal point to get us the goals. We are not playing this way. I think Watkins is getting a bit frustrated with this too, which is why he had a bit of a stinker against Newcastle. Also playing Ramsey instead of Sanson, I have no idea why he would do this, just proved to me it's much too early, as he has no real impact on a game.

[nick76]

12 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

Yes I want us to be able to retain the ball better like those sides, don't you? It's not all about results to be able to see the bigger picture of where we go as a team - when we had MON as manager and were finishing top 6 I didn't like our style of play and I said so as much at the time.

we are in poor form at the moment but for half a season our football was some of the best in the league.  Yes we are struggling at the moment but that half season of play doesnt go away because of some poor form for half a dozen game.  IF it continues until the end of the season I may worry but I will also look how tired the players are.  Look at Ollie, he's knackered, no wonder he isnt the fresh face of early in the season...same with most of them.  I think it's harsh to compare our poor form at the moment to the MON era.  I think this is where you do have to look over the season and see the quality football we have played this season and hope this time is just too much for us with fatigue, a few players out and just our time for a bit of poor form.  If this is short term then great but if it was long term then we'd have a problem but it is seriously too early to think this is the style moving forward because we have proved before it isnt.

18 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

IF we want to become a really top side in this division (which I hope we do), then we have to be able to keep the ball better, beat the press better, press ourselves better, and stop playing long balls

Cant argue with this at all.  I still think is just where we are at the moment as mentioned above and not a long term thing.  I guess this is just whether you think this is blip like me or whether this is who we truly are....I think that would be harsh to think that.

I think more investment in the summer will help because we are a small squad.

21 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

I agree with you on the first third of the season, we were playing progressive, exciting, attacking football, and also pragmatic by playing more counter attack against the likes of Liverpool and Arse. But now we've regressed, and did so even before Jack got injured - we're not just talking half a dozen games here, almost double that which is not just a mini slump.

Dont disagree we arent what we were but slumps are 5/10 games.  Teams go through that time frame in a season with that plus we came out an issue where a lot of our squad had covid in mid january, we still dont know how that has affected them.  We know that slumps are more than a few games and more like double figures because that's how many Man City had at the start of the season, Liverpool have lost six at home on the trot and Chelsea had i believe a 17 games slump where they were top of the league before that.  Chelsea maybe the exception of Lampard v Slump, which may not be helping my argument but it was still a slump and Tuchel has fixed it.  I think we all agree Smith shouldnt be sacked and he has proved in the past of coming out of slumps, even to the point where he improves the team than it was before.

26 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

And yes, I realise Jack is very good at football. But I care mostly about the club and when we don't have Jack we look a shadow of the team we are. I think Dean needs to try structuring the team so it is not so reliant on one individual - but of course I understand that this will take more investment. That's why I said this summer window is important to attract a higher calibre of player.

I agree but this summer maybe the first time we have been able to attract a higher calibre player.  Certainly why would they have been interested when we were in the Championship or just avoided relegation even if we threw money at them.  This summer is the first test for the owners and management how serious they are in challenging in the top six of the league.  We still might be very reliant on Jack just like Man U are on Fernandes who really struggle when he doesnt play,  Spurs struggle when Kane doesnt play, etc etc.  I agree though we need more from other players on the pitch in a creative sense.  Our defence is awesome now but attacking wise we need some real talent if we can get it to help take the focus off Jack.

30 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

Leicester is where we should be aiming to get to. They are a very good team and we're a way off that at the moment I understand. But my general point was that Rodgers can get players like Iheanacho who has generally been in the doldrums this season to perform when they need someone to get them goals. Plus he's changed the formation to suit the personnel he has available at his disposal currently, even playing Iheanacho and Vardy together. And that's impressive management. 

It's a good point about Rodgers.  I think Smith does the same in the defence......Emi is brilliant but only we got him, Mings was a sub at Bournemouth but now under Smith is an England international......Konsa is knocking on England door, didnt see anybody else trying to buy him when we did and last season he has developed and now he's brilliant.  While these players are improving themselves, if Dean gets some criticism, he should also get praise out of getting their performance out of them as well like you mention Iheanacho and Rogers.  Dean also moved Grealish from CAM to LW which meant he had more space, involved in more danger areas, further upfield and so his goals and chances went up and he got the defence right.  Remember before 1st lockdown how poor defensively we were, yet Dean and his coaching staff learnt and made changes and since then they have been rock solid mostly.....that was impressive management from him and his team.

I'm defending Smith here and I know he has his faults, he's learning and he needs to continue to improve.  He makes mistakes i really agree but he seems to learn from them over time.  Fans are never all agree and we know that half the fans will disagree with any manager they have because that is the nature of football.  I probably over defend Smith on here compared to real life but I do feel on here he gets more stick than he deserves.  He should have some credit in the bank but that doesnt matter to some (not you).

Given our history and stature, and what we could be I want us to be more than Leicester because despite their success they are still a small club who are overachieving.  I want us to be a club that is meant to be there....we have the owners, we have the stature, we have the history and we have the fan base....we can be more than Leicester.  We are a long way from being a Leicester at the moment but my aim is to be more than them because we have the basis of bigger and better but that is going to take a few years if we are a little bit lucky and successful.