villa_shere Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, tomav84 said: i've slept on it...and it's rare i say it about a manager...i never fully said it about bruce i dont think, but, smith out i gave wesley so much stick saying it's like playing with 10 men but now realise it's the system. he's had all season to realise that our strikers simply cannot play on their own and still hasn't changed it. chops and changes, sometimes aly starts, sometimes davis, and the outcome is the same. swap them around mid game, oh look, still isolated...it beggers belief. if by some miracle we stay up, i fully expect more of the same next season. he hasn't, and cannot adapt based on the personnel he has. if we stay up, this man will relegate us, either next season or the season after last night was actually one of our best team performances of the season IMO, but we managed 1 shot on target. the lack of any ideas going forward is down to smith. i actually do think we have the personnel to do this but the team was set up so poorly yeah that’s not true https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/big_chance_missed https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/total_scoring_att 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaVilla Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, tomav84 said: i've slept on it...and it's rare i say it about a manager...i never fully said it about bruce i dont think, but, smith out i gave wesley so much stick saying it's like playing with 10 men but now realise it's the system. he's had all season to realise that our strikers simply cannot play on their own and still hasn't changed it. chops and changes, sometimes aly starts, sometimes davis, and the outcome is the same. swap them around mid game, oh look, still isolated...it beggers belief. if by some miracle we stay up, i fully expect more of the same next season. he hasn't, and cannot adapt based on the personnel he has. if we stay up, this man will relegate us, either next season or the season after last night was actually one of our best team performances of the season IMO, but we managed 1 shot on target. the lack of any ideas going forward is down to smith. i actually do think we have the personnel to do this but the team was set up so poorly Its not about strikers playing up top on their own, many many strikers do it these days. The problem is our striker / attacking play wasn't getting enough support. Our midfielders were constantly too deep, or our wingers too isolated, many time I saw someone ping a ball out to a winger and there was nobody within 20 ft of them. Again I have seen people ping balls to Wesley and again nobody within 20 ft. Its no shock that during the game Wesley got injured vs Burnley, he was having his best game for us, that was because we had put grealish and trez(?) Right behind him in a 3421 formation, and amazingly as players actually get close to him he played better...... If you look at teams doing well, when a player receives the ball they have 2 or more players close to them for the out ball. I don't know if its dean's system that causes the lack of support or the players not playing as asked, or both? Anyway, the point stands that wesley can play a lone striker, we just left him too isolated constantly, meaning he couldn't do anything with the balls we put up to him most of the time. What's do agree with us that Dean seems to have issues choosing his first 11. Personally I think he chops and changes too much (covid games aside) Edited July 17, 2020 by MaVilla 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted July 17, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, villa_shere said: yeah that’s not true https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/big_chance_missed https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/total_scoring_att not quite sure the point you're trying to make, but those links have the likes of swansea, sunderland and wigan in their lists. is this all time or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa_shere Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, tomav84 said: not quite sure the point you're trying to make, but those links have the likes of swansea, sunderland and wigan in their lists. is this all time or something? It’s filtered as this season for me. Not sure what’s happened there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted July 17, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, MaVilla said: Its not about strikers playing up top on their own, many many strikers do it these days. The problem is our striker / attacking play wasn't getting enough support. Our midfielders were constantly too deep, or our wingers too isolated, many time I saw someone ping a ball out to a winger and there was nobody within 20 ft of them. Again I have seen people ping balls to Wesley and again nobody within 20 ft. Its no shock that during the game Wesley got injured vs Burnley, he was having his best game for us, that was because we had put grealish and trez(?) Right behind him in a 3421 formation, and amazingly as players child get close to him he played better...... If you look at teams doing well, when a player receives the ball they have 2 or more players close to them for the out ball. I don't know if its dean's system that causes the lack of support or the players not playing as asked, or both? Anyway, the point stands that wesley can play a lone striker, we just left him too isolated constantly, meaning he couldn't do anything with the balls we put up to him most of the time. What's do agree with us that Dean seems to have issues choosing his first 11. Personally I think he chops and changes too much (covid games aside) dean loves the wings. we saw that when we got spanked by brentford every time. problem is that we don't have good enough wingers, and he just doesn't have any other ideas. so per the bolded part, i think it's the system you're right about that burnley game. don't remember jack so much, but remember trez was almost a 2nd striker. but why we didn't build on that system is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa_shere Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 have a look at the chances created and missed here and the end results of those games. Quite often there are three Villa players in the box. we do create chances it’s just that our players can’t hit a barn door 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaVilla Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, tomav84 said: dean loves the wings. we saw that when we got spanked by brentford every time. problem is that we don't have good enough wingers, and he just doesn't have any other ideas. so per the bolded part, i think it's the system you're right about that burnley game. don't remember jack so much, but remember trez was almost a 2nd striker. but why we didn't build on that system is beyond me. Thats definitely a major issue, we like wing play but our wingers are terrible. I have argued before, and still believe it, that If we had two really good wingers (ie: benrahma/buendia types), we would have managed to avoid relegation. El ghazi and trez were criminal wingers for us this season. Edited July 17, 2020 by MaVilla 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 My only criticism from last night was that he should have brought on a couple of fresher players for those struggling. McGinn should definitely have been taken off, as he was absolutely shagged. The team played a lot better yesterday and were creating a lot of chances. The quality of Samatta and Trez in attacking positions let us down, not the tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted July 17, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 minute ago, villa_shere said: It’s filtered as this season for me. Not sure what’s happened there OK - well i'd love to see the stats for 2nd half of the season. guarantee we're near the bottom of both... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, tomav84 said: i've slept on it...and it's rare i say it about a manager...i never fully said it about bruce i dont think, but, smith out i gave wesley so much stick saying it's like playing with 10 men but now realise it's the system. he's had all season to realise that our strikers simply cannot play on their own and still hasn't changed it. chops and changes, sometimes aly starts, sometimes davis, and the outcome is the same. swap them around mid game, oh look, still isolated...it beggers belief. if by some miracle we stay up, i fully expect more of the same next season. he hasn't, and cannot adapt based on the personnel he has. if we stay up, this man will relegate us, either next season or the season after last night was actually one of our best team performances of the season IMO, but we managed 1 shot on target. the lack of any ideas going forward is down to smith. i actually do think we have the personnel to do this but the team was set up so poorly Think I've read 25 of these posts the last 10 years. Time to accept reality that we're a premier lesgue club with a championship team. Doesn’t matter what manager we got when we can't give him time to get it right. Or when we feck up recruitment to the degree we've done. Just stop worrying about, let Smith work on it. Let the club find a better professional than Suso and look forward to more wins in the championship. Throwing a tantrum and starting this revelving door of managers again gets us no where. We are trying to modernise the club from top to bottom, snd things will take time. We need patience and stability. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted July 17, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 minute ago, MaVilla said: That definitely a major issue, we like wing play but our wingers are terrible. I have argued before, and still believe it, that If we had two really good wingers (ie: benrahma/buendia types), we would have managed to avoid relegation. El ghazi and trez were criminal wingers for us this season. yep i 2nd that. had we not bothered with marvelous (not slating him, was just a position we didn't need another £8m addition) and used the money to buy benrahma instead of trez we'd have been OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, villa_shere said: have a look at the chances created and missed here and the end results of those games. Quite often there are three Villa players in the box. we do create chances it’s just that our players can’t hit a barn door Jesus Christ. Painful watching that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted July 17, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Think I've read 25 of these posts the last 10 years. Time to accept reality that we're a premier lesgue club with a championship team. Doesn’t matter what manager we got when we can't give him time to get it right. Or when we feck up recruitment to the degree we've done. Just stop worrying about, let Smith work on it. Let the club find a better professional than Suso and look forward to more wins in the championship. Throwing a tantrum and starting this revelving door of managers again gets us no where. We are trying to modernise the club from top to bottom, snd things will take time. We need patience and stability. how much time do you give them though? if we're mid table at christmas next season after spending another 100m (which is likely based on player outgoings) would you stick with him? near the bottom would you still say "just need patience and stability"? smith has not shown enough improvement for me. he has not provided enough evidence that he can adapt, and change a style when one is not working. he has not improved the players enough...in many cases not improved them at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicVillan Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, tomav84 said: how much time do you give them though? 12 games is about all you get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, lexicon said: Jesus Christ. Painful watching that. El Ghazi with nearly every single miss too 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 57 minutes ago, LondonVillian said: I have many things to base it on - the players we bought before they came here were better (declined ability and passion). Players we have now were better under Bruce. Teams with worse squads than us comfortably staying up. Which players were better before tjey came here? Trezeguet, Mings, Hause, Wesley, Samatta, Nakamba maybe Baston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 56 minutes ago, LondonVillian said: 2nd/3rd let's not make things up as you so adamant to talk only in facts. Did SU sign proven PL players? Did Brighton ? You are just making excuses for a piss poor manager who was incredibly lucky to get us promoted and has been woefully out of depth. If Wilder was our manager with this squad we would not be getting relegated. Jed Steer was 2nd choice keeper. The fact you think last season was luck shows me everything I need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, tomav84 said: how much time do you give them though? if we're mid table at christmas next season after spending another 100m (which is likely based on player outgoings) would you stick with him? near the bottom would you still say "just need patience and stability"? smith has not shown enough improvement for me. he has not provided enough evidence that he can adapt, and change a style when one is not working. he has not improved the players enough...in many cases not improved them at all. I don't see the need to give him a set amount of time. I think the idea we're to spend x amount just highlights the issues at this club. We have to stop thinking we can just spend our way out of it. We've spent so much cash the last 15 years it's unreal. We now have to redevelop everything about this club to catch up to where we should be and any money we spent shouldn't be about spending x amount on the best performing players, but rather spending y amount on players that suit what we wanna do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 57 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said: You would've said the very same thing had we gained 0 points since lockdown. In fact, I'm pretty sure you're been saying it this whole time, even before the last 2 matches. Well, not exactly the same. You would've said something along the lines off, "this squad is the reason we're getting 0 points and no where near survival, Smith has done admirably to even get them to this point in the first place". I don't believe there is any reasonable scenario post-lockdown that could've happened that would lead you to say otherwise. Pretty much whatever happened, you would've still said the same thing above. Since you could always blame any deficiencies in our performances and results on the squad. And its frankly impossible to definitvely prove how much is on the players and not on the manager. To put it bluntly, whatever happened, you would've been pro-Smith the entire way. The fact that we're in "touching distance" of the average amount of points required for survival(we're not really tbh), isn't the reason you want to stick with Smith next season. Especially considering you were arguing to stick with Smith even before our last 2 matches when getting to 36 points seemed impossible in light of our form. But we didn't get 0 pts did we? So good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 26 minutes ago, tomav84 said: OK - well i'd love to see the stats for 2nd half of the season. guarantee we're near the bottom of both... I don't really have those specific stats for the 2nd half of the season but xG is basically a proxy for attacking output anyway(ignoring finishing ability). And I can rank that for the second half of the season. https://understat.com/league/Premier League/2019 You can play around with the chart on this link to get the data you want. But essentially we have the thirst worst attack in the league since the mid-point of the season according to xG. Palace and Norwich are the bottom two. We were 12th place if you looked at only the first half of the season. Other interesting statistics is that our xGA/game is pretty much the same for both halves of the season so far. Meaning our defence possibly has on average been the same for both halves of the season so far. After digging into it deeper, its because our defence deteriorated pretty badly after December and going into lockdown. Our defence has improved tremendously overall after lockdown but on average the defence in the second half of the season is the same as in the first half as the effects cancel each other out. Surprisingly, our attacking output is higher post-lockdown than expected. We are however the worst finishers in the PL during this same time period. I like to emphasize again that its not creating chances that's the problem with us currently. Its the fact that we have been garbage at converting them post-lockdown. Edited July 17, 2020 by Laughable Chimp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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