Vegetarianism/Veganism

[tonyh29]

 

 

Doctors in Belgium have called for parents who raise their children as vegans to face prosecution after a number of deaths in schools, nurseries and hospitals.  

It is estimated that 3 percent of Belgian children are forced to follow the strict diet, which rules out any animal products, including dairy and eggs.

The Royal Academy of Medicine of Belgium published a legal opinion on Thursday, which could influence future court judgments and is the first time a health authority has taken a position on veganism in the country.

The opinion said it was unethical to subject children to the diet because it didn’t include animal proteins and vital amino acids which can help growth and prevent health problems.  [\quote]

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[Wainy316]

On 14/05/2019 at 23:15, chrisp65 said:

 

please tell me more about how we sustainably supply meat to 7.5 billion people

[peterms]

Shocking that the level of public education on nutrition is so poor that people think this would be a thing to do to their children.

All with the best intentions,  no doubt.  Saving the planet.  One child at a time.

[chrisp65]

I'm sure somebody recently suggested the best food for people wanting to help the planet was Easy Jet pilots.

[Stevo985]

Veganism isn't bad for children. A bad diet is.

A bad diet can include animal products or it can not include animal products.

It's perfectly safe for a child to be vegan, you might just have to try a bit harder.

[peterms]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

It's perfectly safe for a child to be vegan, you might just have to try a bit harder.

Try a lot harder, I'd say.  Placing a child on a vegan diet introduces an immediate and significant risk to their health.  It's possible to deal with that risk by careful research, sound planning and good management, but the incidences of harm to children from vegan diets suggests that some parents aren't too good at this.

[djdabush]

4 hours ago, peterms said:

Try a lot harder, I'd say.  Placing a child on a vegan diet introduces an immediate and significant risk to their health.  It's possible to deal with that risk by careful research, sound planning and good management, but the incidences of harm to children from vegan diets suggests that some parents aren't too good at this.

How many kids are harmed by a vegan diet vs. how many fed a diet consisting of fast food and high red meat consumption. When western society is dealing with record numbers of childhood obesity I'm not sure I agree that the significant risk we should be focused on is veganism.

[Mic09]

Humans eat meat and fish. We have always done so - some cultures more, some less.

I don't care if adults east no meat, no dairy, no chocolate, or if they have a diet of gherkins and granola.

But giving a child no proper nutrition because of your own world view should be a crime. And proper nutrition (for a child) comes from a varied diet of dairy, meat, fish, vegetables and fruit.

[bannedfromHandV]

It's a bunch of bullshit.

If someone wants to eat plants, fine, crack on, your choice (provided they're of adult age and understanding).

I however was born a carnivore and will remain a carnivore, I enjoy eating meat, I do not enjoy the vast majority of alternatives.

Simple as, I don't really get the debate other than people wanting to convince everyone else that they're right and everyone should do as they do.......beyond that who gives a shit.

[Davkaus]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

But giving a child no proper nutrition because of your own world view should be a crime. And proper nutrition (for a child) comes from a varied diet of dairy, meat, fish, vegetables and fruit.

I agree with you that allowing a child to be malnourished should be a criminal offence, but meat and dairy is certainly not a requirement for this. Makes it easier, sure, but it's naive in the extreme to suggest that it's negligent or harmful parenting to raise a vegetarian child.

In the example of that dreadful parent a few pages back who sent their child to school with nothing more than salad to eat, if that was their routine diet I'd have no hesitation against taking a child in to care. Just as I would support the same for an omnivorous parent solely feeding their kid jam sandwiches.

A well balanced diet that's free from animal products is still a well balanced diet.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Davkaus

[Mic09]

1 minute ago, Davkaus said:

I agree with you that allowing a child to be malnourished should be a criminal offence, but meat and dairy is certainly not a requirement for this. Makes it easier, sure, but it's naive in the extreme to suggest that it's negligent or harmful parenting to raise a vegetarian child.

In the example of that dreadful parent a few pages back who sent their child to school with nothing more than salad to eat, if that was their routine diet I'd have no hesitation against taking a child in to care. Just as I would support the same for an omnivorous parent solely feeding their kid jam sandwiches.

 A well balanced diet that's free from animal products is still a well balanced diet.

Maybe so. 

I guess I prefer a hypothetical child to be fed Apples and Carrots then chicken goujons and Mackie D's all day.

But then again you have the above example of a few kids dying in Belgium... maybe it's just too hard to implement a vegan diet for a child. 

[AVFCDAN]

I fee like a Vegetarian diet for a child should be up to the parents discretion but a Vegan diet is a step too far and not fair on a child who has no say.

[peterms]

2 hours ago, djdabush said:

How many kids are harmed by a vegan diet vs. how many fed a diet consisting of fast food and high red meat consumption. When western society is dealing with record numbers of childhood obesity I'm not sure I agree that the significant risk we should be focused on is veganism.

Yes, many more are harmed by fast food and processed food, it's clearly the bigger issue in terms of numbers.

My comment is only about people imposing a vegan diet on a child, ie choosing to feed them a diet which will be nutritionally inadequate unless carefully planned countermeasures are taken, such as vitamin supplements.

But fast food and veganism are not the only choices, and the proposals by Jamie Oliver and the Soil Association about school meals (eg less meat but better meat) are far preferable.  There's obviously also a big issue about making decent food affordable for people on very low incomes.

[peterms]

52 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

In the example of that dreadful parent a few pages back who sent their child to school with nothing more than salad to eat, if that was their routine diet I'd have no hesitation against taking a child in to care.

In that example, the parents were trying to do the right thing, they were well motivated, they just didn't understand the harm they were doing.  There's not enough clear, simple, easily accessible information.

If you want to home school your child, I gather you need to show how you are going to meet their educational needs, and the council can check up on how the child is progressing.  Perhaps for people who want to impose a vegan diet on a child, there needs to be clear information about what they will be lacking, how to remedy that, and periodic checks on the child's welfare.

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

It's a bunch of bullshit.

If someone wants to eat plants, fine, crack on, your choice (provided they're of adult age and understanding).

I however was born a carnivore and will remain a carnivore, I enjoy eating meat, I do not enjoy the vast majority of alternatives.

Simple as, I don't really get the debate other than people wanting to convince everyone else that they're right and everyone should do as they do.......beyond that who gives a shit.

Well I guess the debate is that a meat based diet is generally worse for you, evidently worse for the environment and morally cruel to animals. 

So if you want to eat meat that’s obviously fine. But it’s no surprise that if people believe the above then they will argue that they are “right”

[bannedfromHandV]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Well I guess the debate is that a meat based diet is generally worse for you, evidently worse for the environment and morally cruel to animals. 

So if you want to eat meat that’s obviously fine. But it’s no surprise that if people believe the above then they will argue that they are “right”

If we didn’t eat the animals we eat they’d have to be periodically culled anyway, I 100% advocate them having as good and comfortable an existence as possible in the meantime but that’s a different conversation, cutting off your nose to spite your face in giving up meat altogether is OTT for me. 

I don’t understand the notion of it being a better diet for us, given that we’ve existed and evolved for a pretty long time eating meat, if you’re telling me that it might add a few more years on at the end then with all due respect, that’s not enough for me to change.

[Davkaus]

 

[Xela]

Had a Greggs vegan sausage roll today. Actually not bad! For what it is, it tastes sort of genuine 

[Stevo985]

13 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

If we didn’t eat the animals we eat they’d have to be periodically culled anyway, I 100% advocate them having as good and comfortable an existence as possible in the meantime but that’s a different conversation, cutting off your nose to spite your face in giving up meat altogether is OTT for me. 

No we wouldn’t. I don’t know if there’s the odd animal we’d have to cull, but in general that’s nonsense. We just wouldn’t breed them anymore. 

13 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

 

I don’t understand the notion of it being a better diet for us, given that we’ve existed and evolved for a pretty long time eating meat, if you’re telling me that it might add a few more years on at the end then with all due respect, that’s not enough for me to change.

there’s lots of stuff we’ve evolved to do. Doesn’t mean it’s healthy. It’s fact that in general a meat based diet is worse for you. If you don’t care about that then that’s fine. But that doesn’t mean it’s not healthier to not eat meat just because you don’t care about it.  

(not always by the way. You can have a good diet that includes meat and you can have an awful diet that doesn’t include meat. But in general, a vegetarian/vegan diet is better for you than a meat based diet)

Edited May 18, 2019 by Stevo985

[Mic09]

16 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Well I guess the debate is that a meat based diet is generally worse for you, evidently worse for the environment and morally cruel to animals. 

So if you want to eat meat that’s obviously fine. But it’s no surprise that if people believe the above then they will argue that they are “right”

Somehow I never got the "morally cruel" argument when it comes to diet for two reasons. One religious (and ignore it if you wish to disagree) and second more "down to earth".

1. Religious

If you are a religious believer, you will believe animals are created FOR humans. And if you are not a religious believer, you could raise a question of what do you base morality on in order to believe in animal cruelty? What drives your moral compass to believe that?

2. Down to earth reason.

Eating animals is bad. But wearing leather belts or shoes is ok. When you are Ill, it's ok to use drugs that have been tested on animals. It's ok to drive on a motorway that has gone through a deer territorry, and essentially killed its population in that place. It's ok to build wind farms, destroying the breeding flight paths of birds. It's ok to go on holiday and use a plane, using a massive amount of CO2 that cannot be good for wildlife.

And you could take it further;

Is it ok to go on about animal cruelty, yet use a phone built by small Asian kids? Is it ok to wear t-shirts made for pennies in Vietnam? 

I just think the "don't eat meat because it's cruel" argument a little inconsistent. Sure, you can say that every little helps, but I just think that it's a very high moral ground to be taking when you consider how little we actually do as a species to look after animals.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Mic09