Vegetarianism/Veganism

[djdabush]

I'm all over this being a veggie and a Percy pig connoisseur. From what I can tell they are considering bringing in a 'classic' edition back and keeping the rest of the range veggie. All this after The Sun had nothing better to report on its front page.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

When you break it down it is dumb asf being sceptical about food just because it doesn't contain what was once what we consider a living, conscious animal. It's another thing that's so ingrained (pardon the pun) in us that it's really difficult to unpack and unpick. Regardless, the majority of the food we eat is plant based anyway, unless you're on one of those fad diets, so it is clearly the NONE consumption of meat that we find uncomfortable rather than the consumption of plant based food itself. 

My impression is that consuming ridiculous amounts of meat was at some point linked heavily to masculinity, hence why the initial push towards vegetarianism and then veganism always *seemed* to come from women and the men who followed were/are considered effeminate as a result which also seen as a negative for some bonkers reason. As we start to realise how much of a load of old bollocks that is we have started to have a rethink on this as a society and I think it's great. Particularly given the amount of damage high consumption of animal products causes to the environment, as well as the often unnecessary birth/agony/death of the animals involved.

In summary -  IMO it's weak old farts stuck in the past and so massively brainwashed by advertising that they can no longer think for themselves holding this planet back from progress re animal consumption. Many of them, some in this thread, won't even entertain the conversation. Personally I do like the taste of meat occasionally, so I will likely continue to eat it in some quantity, but I'm certainly trying to cut back heavily and be far more ethical about it moving forward. It is hard, but baby steps not baby cows and all that. 

[tonyh29]

yep the reason I don't eat Quorn is because i don't want anyone to think I'm gay

Vegan / vegetarianism in men isn't about men suddenly  being in touch with their feminine side  , it isn't bout being ethical either ...  its about blokes who find out the girl they want to shag doesn't eat meat so they go veggie in an attempt to get laid  , with the added bonus they get to lecture a few people along the way about how bacon is evil

We should, at the very least, question the ethics of driving up demand for crops that require high inputs of fertiliser, fungicides, pesticides and herbicides, while demonising sustainable forms of livestock farming that can restore soils and biodiversity ...... if concerns as a vegan are the environment, animal welfare and your own health, then it’s simply not possible to pretend that these are all met simply by giving up meat and dairy  

 

[StefanAVFC]

In truth, a balanced diet with small amounts of responsibly sourced meat and other grains/veggies is probably best for you.

But the Western lifestyle makes it impossible.

[chrisp65]

7 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

sustainable forms of livestock farming

 

please tell me more about how we sustainably supply meat to 7.5 billion people

[Xann]

42 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

please tell me more about how we sustainably supply meat to 7.5 billion people

Back to stone floors and you can keep livestock in the house.

Saw the future, on the Costas of Spain in the early 80s.

Massive telly and chickens running around in the lounge

[blandy]

7 hours ago, Xann said:

Back to stone floors and you can keep livestock in the house.

Saw the future, on the Costas of Spain in the early 80s.

Massive telly and chickens running around in the lounge

The deeds for my house, which is a Victorian terraced job, specifically prohibit the keeping of livestock in it, or it might be just pigs, but whichever - this will be a problem after that brexit they’re doing.

[chrisp65]

7 hours ago, Xann said:

Back to stone floors and you can keep livestock in the house.

 

radio rentals telly with a coin meter and chickens running around in the lounge

 

My great grandmother's house, over in Gwenfo, early 1970's.

Water was hand pumped from their own well! All cooking and boiling of kettles was done over the fire. I shit you not.

 

Fairly confident the first time they'd seen one of these new fangled wheels was the 1950's.

[tonyh29]

11 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

 

please tell me more about how we sustainably supply meat to 7.5 billion people

from the article I read on flipboard it was along the lines of  traditional rotational systems, permanent pasture and conservation grazing ... end of the day that's better for the environment than products made from industrially grown soya, maize and grains that require high inputs of fertiliser, fungicides, pesticides and herbicide

 

you can probably find the full article if you google it on yahoo  , was along the lines of "if you want to save the planet being vegan isn't the answer"  .. for sure it can be debunked by hippies and people lacking protein in their diet  , but it does raise some interesting points

 

[Xann]

4 hours ago, blandy said:

The deeds for my house, which is a Victorian terraced job, specifically prohibit the keeping of livestock in it, or it might be just pigs...

Just found out Cornu aspersum, the Garden Snail, is what the French call Petit Gris, an escargot snail.

That changes everything!

They do hang around next to where the cats shit though.

Might have to reclaim Snail Corner by peeing in the garden again?

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

from the article I read on flipboard it was along the lines of  traditional rotational systems, permanent pasture and conservation grazing ... end of the day that's better for the environment than products made from industrially grown soya, maize and grains that require high inputs of fertiliser, fungicides, pesticides and herbicide

you can probably find the full article if you google it on yahoo  , was along the lines of "if you want to save the planet being vegan isn't the answer"  .. for sure it can be debunked by hippies and people lacking protein in their diet  , but it does raise some interesting points

it is an interesting topic

I think there's a counter argument that nobody ever negated the effect of our antibiotics by giving them to cauliflowers.

There is an issue with soil degradation, but it ain't going to be solved by making more space for more chickens. it might be solved by not wasting the 25 / 33% of all food that's grown being wasted. Not least, that could be going back in to the system as fertiliser - as could human shite were we on a vegetarian diet. We could do the job we're saying the cows are needed for.

Right now we're depleting the sea to feed fish meal to the livestock that also then need three fields we could be growing our own food on. It's just bonkers really.

I think there's going to be a necessity soon to restrict meat consumption across the world. Trouble with that is, we're likely to tell some dirt poor third world family of 10 they can't share a chicken, whilst we 'try' not to eat meat in most meals most days.

It's not going to be an easy ride from here.

[tonyh29]

5 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

There is an issue with soil degradation, but it ain't going to be solved by making more space for more chickens

interestingly , I think the exact opposite was one of the arguments they made in the article ( cattle rather than chicken tbf)  , think it originated in the Guardian so I'll see if I can hunt it down

Edit :

here it is

Crucially, because we don’t dose them with avermectins (the anti-worming agents routinely fed to livestock in intensive systems) or antibiotics, their dung feeds earthworms, bacteria, fungi and invertebrates such as dung beetles, which pull the manure down into the earth. This is a vital process of ecosystem restoration, returning nutrients and structure to the soil. Soil loss is one of the greatest catastrophes facing the world today. A 2015 report from the UN Food and Agriculture Organization states that, globally, 25 to 40bn tonnes of topsoil are lost annually to erosion, thanks mainly to ploughing and intensive cropping. In the UK topsoil depletion is so severe that in 2014 the trade magazine Farmers Weekly announced we may have only 100 harvests left. Letting arable land lie fallow and returning it to grazed pasture for a period – as farmers used to, before artificial fertilisers and mechanisation made continuous cropping possible – is the only way to reverse that process, halt erosion and rebuild soil, according to the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation. The grazing livestock not only provide farmers with an income, but the animals’ dung, urine and even the way they graze, accelerates soil restoration. The key is to be organic, and keep livestock numbers low to prevent over-grazing.

Twenty years ago, our soils at the farm – severely degraded after decades of ploughing and chemical inputs – were almost biologically dead. Now we have fruiting fungi and orchids appearing in our former arable fields: an indication that subterranean networks of mycorrhizal fungi are spreading. We have 19 types of earthworm – keystone species responsible for aerating, rotavating, fertilising, hydrating and even detoxifying the soil. We’ve found 23 species of dung beetle in a single cowpat, one of which – the violet dor beetle – hasn’t been seen in Sussex for 50 years. Birds that feed on insects attracted by this nutritious dung are rocketing. The rootling of the pigs provides opportunities for native flora and shrubs to germinate, including sallow, and this has given rise to the biggest colony of purple emperors in Britain, one of our rarest butterflies, which lays its eggs on sallow leaves

Edited May 15, 2019 by tonyh29

[chrisp65]

Just now, tonyh29 said:

interestingly , I think the exact opposite was one of the arguments they made in the article ( cattle rather than chicken tbf)  , think it originated in the Guardian so I'll see if I can hunt it down

I'd be fairly confident that cows are not an efficient net producer of goodness for soil.

But happy to be educated if I'm wrong.

More cows would also mean more methane, but I guess if they were indoor cows we could harness that and run the farms on cow gas.

[Xann]

 

Quote

 

What is permaculture?

Permaculture is a design process. It helps design intelligent systems which meet human needs whilst enhancing biodiversity, reducing our impact on the planet, and creating a fairer world for us all.

People across the globe are creating thriving communities with permaculture.

 

https://www.permaculture.org.uk/

[chrisp65]

9 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

interestingly , I think the exact opposite was one of the arguments they made in the article ( cattle rather than chicken tbf)  , think it originated in the Guardian so I'll see if I can hunt it down

Edit :

here it is

 

 

ah, I think that's an argument for organics and crop rotation, which is sensible

I don't think it's an argument for having cows, as we need the other fields to feed the cows. I think at the moment, an area of land in the Uk equivalent to Yorkshire is needed to provide feed for livestock. 

I think that system described is 'less bad', but we won't feed meat to 7.5 billion people by returning to grazing cattle that each have a name in a sunny meadow.

[tonyh29]

16 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

ah, I think that's an argument for organics and crop rotation, which is sensible

I don't think it's an argument for having cows, as we need the other fields to feed the cows. I think at the moment, an area of land in the Uk equivalent to Yorkshire is needed to provide feed for livestock. 

I think that system described is 'less bad', but we won't feed meat to 7.5 billion people by returning to grazing cattle that each have a name in a sunny meadow.

Nothing good in Yorkshire so converting it to a giant field sounds like win win all round  

[Stevo985]

On 14/05/2019 at 15:10, tonyh29 said:

yep the reason I don't eat Quorn is because i don't want anyone to think I'm gay

Vegan / vegetarianism in men isn't about men suddenly  being in touch with their feminine side  , it isn't bout being ethical either ...  its about blokes who find out the girl they want to shag doesn't eat meat so they go veggie in an attempt to get laid  , with the added bonus they get to lecture a few people along the way about how bacon is evil

We should, at the very least, question the ethics of driving up demand for crops that require high inputs of fertiliser, fungicides, pesticides and herbicides, while demonising sustainable forms of livestock farming that can restore soils and biodiversity ...... if concerns as a vegan are the environment, animal welfare and your own health, then it’s simply not possible to pretend that these are all met simply by giving up meat and dairy  

 

I don't think anybody is pretending that.

But a meat free diet is far more environmentally friendly than a meat based diet. I'm pretty sure that's a fact.

How much crops do you think are required to sustain the billions of animals that we eat? A lot more than are required to just feed humans. So the argument that more people eating a meat free diet will increase the farming of crops just doesn't add up imo.

[peterms]

4 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't think anybody is pretending that.

But a meat free diet is far more environmentally friendly than a meat based diet. I'm pretty sure that's a fact.

How much crops do you think are required to sustain the billions of animals that we eat? A lot more than are required to just feed humans. So the argument that more people eating a meat free diet will increase the farming of crops just doesn't add up imo.

A vegan diet is likely to be harmful, and a great many people across the world suffer malnutrition, stunted growth and other things as a result.

We eat too much meat.

Crops for human and animal consumption are grown in destructive ways, harming the soil, poisoning the rivers, and greatly reducing biodiversity.

All the above are true.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, peterms said:

 

Crops for human and animal consumption are grown in destructive ways, harming the soil, poisoning the rivers, and greatly reducing biodiversity.

But more crops are grown to feed animals that we then eat than are required to feed humans. A lot more. 14 times more in fact.

So even if growing crops is harmful, which of course it is, everyone having a plant based diet is still the least harmful solution. Because the animals we breed to eat require a LOT more crops.

[peterms]

20 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

But more crops are grown to feed animals that we then eat than are required to feed humans. A lot more. 14 times more in fact.

So even if growing crops is harmful, which of course it is, everyone having a plant based diet is still the least harmful solution. Because the animals we breed to eat require a LOT more crops.

I don't know if we agree or disagree.  

We should distinguish "plant based diet" from "strictly vegan".  One is good, one is probably harmful.  Also depends whether plant based actually means plant based or exclusively plant.

Yes, growing crops in unsustainable ways to quickly bulk up animals kept in poor conditions to be killed so we overconsume crap meat filled with wated and additives is a very bad idea.