Vegetarianism/Veganism

[Davkaus]

39 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Fair point and explained well. 

...I...This doesn't happen on the internet, I'm confused.

I was coming in to this expecting an argument

[KenjiOgiwara]

53 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

This has been covered several times over the last 48 pages, but very few people are vegetarian/vegan simply because they don't like the flavour, so what's the problem with creating similar flavours/textures and using a language that'll let people know roughly what to expect?

It's not confusing anyone, it's not like you're going to ask for a chicken burger in a mainstream restaurant and end up with the vegan option.

I think it's weird personally. How many reasons can there be for going vegan? Suspect the large majoritet either are vegan cause 

a) they hate animal cruelty and morally go vegan

or

b) it's a health thing. 

potentially even 

c) it's a global climate/resource choice

If you are in a) the taste and smell of meat and especially texture will be unwanted, so why advertise it as anything close to meat? 

Edited March 23, 2019 by KenjiOgiwara

[Davkaus]

6 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

 

If you are in a) the taste and smell of meat and especially texture will be unwanted, so why advertise it as anything close to meat? 

Vegans are not a club, or a cult that have a single perspective. Even within your categories (which I mostly agree with) of why people are vegan, there'll be a split between people liking meat-like foods. 

Some do feel this way, certainly. I have  a mate who's been veggie his entire life and isn't interested in any fake meats at all. My partner is veggie (mostly vegan, i'm working on it ) and likes some, but there are a few like the "beyond burgers" that she thinks are too realistic and they turn her stomach.

Me, on the other hand, it's mostly reason A, but the night before I jumped straight in to being a full-on sanctimonious vegan prick, I went out for dinner in a barbecue/steak place and had the most ridiculously delicious burger I've ever had. Close to half a kilo, and 4 different types of meat in it. I bloody loved meat...Just not as much as I hated the idea of animals dying to create it.

I mostly eat meals made from scratch at home, but occasionally still like a  nice greasy, dirty burger loaded with toppings, for example. Or a shameful Greggs sausage roll. If harm-free lab-grown meat does become a thing, that perfectly encapsulates the properties of ordinary meat, I'm in. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Davkaus

[Vive_La_Villa]

24 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

...I...This doesn't happen on the internet, I'm confused.

I was coming in to this expecting an argument

I wrote a few counter arguments but they just had no weight pal. I had too accept I was defeated

[KenjiOgiwara]

10 hours ago, Davkaus said:

Vegans are not a club, or a cult that have a single perspective. Even within your categories (which I mostly agree with) of why people are vegan, there'll be a split between people liking meat-like foods. 

Some do feel this way, certainly. I have  a mate who's been veggie his entire life and isn't interested in any fake meats at all. My partner is veggie (mostly vegan, i'm working on it ) and likes some, but there are a few like the "beyond burgers" that she thinks are too realistic and they turn her stomach.

Me, on the other hand, it's mostly reason A, but the night before I jumped straight in to being a full-on sanctimonious vegan prick, I went out for dinner in a barbecue/steak place and had the most ridiculously delicious burger I've ever had. Close to half a kilo, and 4 different types of meat in it. I bloody loved meat...Just not as much as I hated the idea of animals dying to create it.

I mostly eat meals made from scratch at home, but occasionally still like a  nice greasy, dirty burger loaded with toppings, for example. Or a shameful Greggs sausage roll. If harm-free lab-grown meat does become a thing, that perfectly encapsulates the properties of ordinary meat, I'm in. 

I can't really disagree with any of that. Personally I am eating a lot of veggie stuff myself atm. relative to what I did before, but I still think making vegan food look like meat and give it meatlike names is pretty stupid. I just don't see the point. I had some pulled pork veggie stuff several weeks in a row, but I only picked it cause the veggie stuff for my tacos was sold out. No idea why they called it pulled pork, but it was excellent. Personally I think they should just come up with better names that actually tells you what you're buying.  If the "pulled pork" is soy based strips of textured proteins with fancy spices, just call it that. Or something to that effect. Shit call it protein strips. 

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by KenjiOgiwara

[Mandy Lifeboats]

It's an interesting debate whether a vegan/vegetarian diet leads to more animal deaths.

Crops are treated with pesticides. Fields are ploughed killing mice, moles, worms, beetles etc. Massive greenhouses are built on agricultural land preventing wild life from using the natural resources of that land. 

How many cows died to give me the meat on my burger? But how many insects and slugs died to give me the lettuce and tomato on my burger? 

We place a value on animal life based upon the size and intelligence of the animal. But we also take into account whether it looks nice. A grey squirrel is nothing more than a rat but it's get a better PR advisor. 

I have absolutely nothing against anyone based upon their diet. You don't eat cows,  I don't eat rats.  It's pretty irrelevant in my opinion. 

[VILLAMARV]

1 minute ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

It's an interesting debate whether a vegan/vegetarian diet leads to more animal deaths.

Crops are treated with pesticides. Fields are ploughed killing mice, moles, worms, beetles etc. Massive greenhouses are built on agricultural land preventing wild life from using the natural resources of that land. 

How many cows died to give me the meat on my burger? But how many insects and slugs died to give me the lettuce and tomato on my burger? 

We place a value on animal life based upon the size and intelligence of the animal. But we also take into account whether it looks nice. A grey squirrel is nothing more than a rat but it's get a better PR advisor. 

I have absolutely nothing against anyone based upon their diet. You don't eat cows,  I don't eat rats.  It's pretty irrelevant in my opinion. 

[VILLAMARV]

1 minute ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

It's an interesting debate whether a vegan/vegetarian diet leads to more animal deaths.

Crops are treated with pesticides. Fields are ploughed killing mice, moles, worms, beetles etc. Massive greenhouses are built on agricultural land preventing wild life from using the natural resources of that land. 

How many cows died to give me the meat on my burger? But how many insects and slugs died to give me the lettuce and tomato on my burger? 

We place a value on animal life based upon the size and intelligence of the animal. But we also take into account whether it looks nice. A grey squirrel is nothing more than a rat but it's get a better PR advisor. 

I have absolutely nothing against anyone based upon their diet. You don't eat cows,  I don't eat rats.  It's pretty irrelevant in my opinion. 

there's an interesting debate to be had around that I reckon

Quote

Disassembling one of Tesco's budget meatballs, Jimmy discovered....... that its raw material came from 179 different cows.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/reviews/last-nights-viewing-jimmy-and-the-giant-supermarket-channel-4-silk-bbc1-7800872.html

[Xela]

58 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

there's an interesting debate to be had around that I reckon

Disassembling one of Tesco's budget meatballs, Jimmy discovered....... that its raw material came from 179 different cows.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/reviews/last-nights-viewing-jimmy-and-the-giant-supermarket-channel-4-silk-bbc1-7800872.html

Mmmmm... various cows 

[Wainy316]

3 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I can't really disagree with any of that. Personally I am eating a lot of veggie stuff myself atm. relative to what I did before, but I still think making vegan food look like meat and give it meatlike names is pretty stupid. I just don't see the point. I had some pulled pork veggie stuff several weeks in a row, but I only picked it cause the veggie stuff for my tacos was sold out. No idea why they called it pulled pork, but it was excellent. Personally I think they should just come up with better names that actually tells you what you're buying.  If the "pulled pork" is soy based strips of textured proteins with fancy spices, just call it that. Or something to that effect. Shit call it protein strips. 

 

Could it not just be a labelling system for people that may miss eating meat to replicate the tastes they used to enjoy?

[blandy]

4 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I still think making vegan food look like meat and give it meatlike names is pretty stupid.

Like @Wainy316 says, a part of it is about selling the idea to people who may be meat chompers. Or people who were meat chompers and miss meat from time to time. They're businesses selling produce and "it's a bit like meat" is a good marketing thing to non veggies and recent converts.

[Davkaus]

9 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

It's an interesting debate whether a vegan/vegetarian diet leads to more animal deaths.

I'm sorry, but this is not a debate at all. What do you think all of the animals you eat live on?

Far more plants are grown to feed the animals that omnivores eat than the plants that would be needed to directly feed people.

Of course growing food for veggies leads to harm, living causes harm, unfortunately. I'm not having this "vegan food kills more animals' nonsense, though.  

Edited March 24, 2019 by Davkaus

[Stevo985]

9 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

It's an interesting debate whether a vegan/vegetarian diet leads to more animal deaths.

Crops are treated with pesticides. Fields are ploughed killing mice, moles, worms, beetles etc. Massive greenhouses are built on agricultural land preventing wild life from using the natural resources of that land. 

How many cows died to give me the meat on my burger? But how many insects and slugs died to give me the lettuce and tomato on my burger? 

We place a value on animal life based upon the size and intelligence of the animal. But we also take into account whether it looks nice. A grey squirrel is nothing more than a rat but it's get a better PR advisor. 

I have absolutely nothing against anyone based upon their diet. You don't eat cows,  I don't eat rats.  It's pretty irrelevant in my opinion. 

What do you think the animals that are farmed to produce meat eat?

[Stevo985]

22 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

 

If you are in a) the taste and smell of meat and especially texture will be unwanted, so why advertise it as anything close to meat? 

No. I **** love meat. It’s delicious. I just don’t want to eat dead animals anymore. 

If I can get something that tastes like meat, but doesn’t include the dead animal part, then I’m delighted. 

[Davkaus]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

What do you think the animals that are farmed to produce meat eat?

Turns out veggies are like busses... 

[peterms]

10 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Crops are treated with pesticides. Fields are ploughed killing mice, moles, worms, beetles etc. Massive greenhouses are built on agricultural land preventing wild life from using the natural resources of that land.  

Yes, and monoculture and soil degradation are very important issues that are consequences of both plant and meat production.  It's how you grow it rather than what you eat that is more important from this point of view.

1 hour ago, Davkaus said:

Far more plants are grown to feed the animals that omnivores eat than the plants that would be needed to directly feed people. 

So meat from places that don't support crops that we could directly eat would be ok?  Say, sheep meat from hill farms that don't support much more than grass?

[Davkaus]

5 minutes ago, peterms said:

So meat from places that don't support crops that we could directly eat would be ok?  Say, sheep meat from hill farms that don't support much more than grass?

It's not the plants that are grown in the location that's the problem, it's that animals bred for food consume a huge amount of resources. I was replying to a post suggesting that a huge amount of insects and small animals are killed in the production of vegetables for human consumption. Far more vegetables need to be grown for animals to eat before they're on our plates. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Davkaus

[Mandy Lifeboats]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

What do you think the animals that are farmed to produce meat eat?

They eat vegetation of some kind.

But it's not a simple calculation. 

If I kill a hedgehog and eat it I have killed 1 animal. If I grow potatoes I might kill 2 worms whilst planting them.  But what about the fleas that lived on the hedgehog?  What about the slugs I saved by killing the hedgehog?

The point I was making was that everything we eat probably involves the death of an animal at some stage. But we place more value on certain animals. It's easy to say 1 sheep died for my lamb hock.  You will never now how may animals actually died for a lamb hock or a lettuce. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Mandy Lifeboats
Speeling mishsteaks

[peterms]

13 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Far more vegetables need to be grown for animals to eat before they're on our plates.  

Yes.  But I'm asking about where that is not the case, eg sheep on hill farms, or fish, or wild rabbits.  Not all meat is the product of fields that could support vegetables for human consumption, but the debate sometimes seems to assume it is. 

I can see why people who don't approve of eating animals at all wouldn't distinguish between these things, but for people whose vegetarianism is driven by environmental concerns, is this not a legitimate distinction - and one which could lead them to accepting some kinds of meat-eating even if they don't partake themselves?

[a m ole]

2 hours ago, peterms said:

Yes.  But I'm asking about where that is not the case, eg sheep on hill farms, or fish, or wild rabbits.  Not all meat is the product of fields that could support vegetables for human consumption, but the debate sometimes seems to assume it is. 

I can see why people who don't approve of eating animals at all wouldn't distinguish between these things, but for people whose vegetarianism is driven by environmental concerns, is this not a legitimate distinction - and one which could lead them to accepting some kinds of meat-eating even if they don't partake themselves?

yes. almost all of it is, though.