Stevo985 Posted March 25, 2019 Author VT Supporter Share Posted March 25, 2019 4 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: They eat vegetation of some kind. But it's not a simple calculation. If I kill a hedgehog and eat it I have killed 1 animal. If I grow potatoes I might kill 2 worms whilst planting them. But what about the fleas that lived on the hedgehog? What about the slugs I saved by killing the hedgehog? The point I was making was that everything we eat probably involves the death of an animal at some stage. But we place more value on certain animals. It's easy to say 1 sheep died for my lamb hock. You will never now how may animals actually died for a lamb hock or a lettuce. Absolutely something almost always has to die. Eating plants is damaging too but far far more plants and vegetation are used to feed animals that we then eat than would be used if we just ate the plants in the first place. It’s something like a 14:1 ratio All food is damaging somewhat. Existing is damaging to the environment and animals. But I don’t think there’s any debate that a vegan diet is far far less damaging than a meat eating diet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 25, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: Absolutely something almost always has to die. Eating plants is damaging too but far far more plants and vegetation are used to feed animals that we then eat than would be used if we just ate the plants in the first place. It’s something like a 14:1 ratio All food is damaging somewhat. Existing is damaging to the environment and animals. But I don’t think there’s any debate that a vegan diet is far far less damaging than a meat eating diet. 3 hours ago, a m ole said: yes. almost all of it is, though. It’s like neither of you actually read Peters point after the first line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 25, 2019 Author VT Supporter Share Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, bickster said: It’s like neither of you actually read Peters point after the first line Enlighten us. I’ve read it. I don’t see what I’ve missed? Assuming “peter” is Mandy Lifeboats. I’ve not responded to peterms post if you’re talking about him Edited March 25, 2019 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 25, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2019 9 hours ago, peterms said: Yes. But I'm asking about where that is not the case, eg sheep on hill farms, or fish, or wild rabbits. Not all meat is the product of fields that could support vegetables for human consumption, but the debate sometimes seems to assume it is. I can see why people who don't approve of eating animals at all wouldn't distinguish between these things, but for people whose vegetarianism is driven by environmental concerns, is this not a legitimate distinction - and one which could lead them to accepting some kinds of meat-eating even if they don't partake themselves? The state of the hills due to sheep grazing is sad. The deforestation over the years has led to the disappearance of all kinds of wildlife. Fishing, apart from near extinction has killed all kinds of other critters in by-catch, and through drift nets and plastic pollution, lead pollution. Then the fish is turned into fish meal and used to grow crops to feed to cattle... Sure, I think you’re right about small scale, organic, free range farming being low impact, and the same goes for rod and line fishing for your dinner, but mass agriculture, whether for meat - really bad, or vegetables- still bad, is wrecking the planet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, bickster said: It’s like neither of you actually read Peters point after the first line Eh? I was directly addressing the last question, as in - I’m vegetarian but I’m fine with some kinds of meat eating. What don’t you think I read? I tried to respond to Mandy Lifeboats but it was hard to find ‘the point’. Maybe something about why do we value a cow above a worm? I’d be happy to debate that. Or was it about the whole maths thing? The analogy doesn’t work as Stevo is trying to point out. Even if we looked at lives 1:1 it’s not even close if you’re looking at a death footprint because meat production is massively inefficient. Animals have to consume a lot more of the vegetation we could eat to produce the same amount of calories so you’re not only killing the farm animal but also more of the animals indirectly affected. Edited March 25, 2019 by a m ole 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 25, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2019 3 hours ago, a m ole said: why do we value a cow above a worm? I’d be happy to debate that. There's certainly some wriggle room in any definition. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted March 25, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25, 2019 15 hours ago, Davkaus said: Turns out veggies are like busses... Because they are showing up at the designated place? In this case, the veggie/vegan thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, Stevo985 said: No. I **** love meat. It’s delicious. I just don’t want to eat dead animals anymore. If I can get something that tastes like meat, but doesn’t include the dead animal part, then I’m delighted. I know what you mean mate. But it’s a nightmare trying to them while they’re alive! Edited March 25, 2019 by Vive_La_Villa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted April 4, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted April 4, 2019 Following on from the veg naming talk in the Brexit thread - I’m sure it’s been asked before, but people who are upset about the term veggie burgers or vegan sausage rolls because “they’re not burgers/sausages”, do they get upset because the recipe for toad in the hole traditionally contains no amphibians? As it happens I finally got round to trying a Greggs vegan sausage roll as it happened, yep tastes like an original meat one. Wouldn’t have noticed the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 34 minutes ago, Shropshire Lad said: I’m sure it’s been asked before, but people who are upset about the term veggie burgers or vegan sausage rolls because “they’re not burgers/sausages”, do they get upset because the recipe for toad in the hole traditionally contains no amphibians? Speak for yourself! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted April 4, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted April 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, Xela said: Speak for yourself! I had a couple of similar thoughts before I went with toad in the hole, I figured it would provoke the fewest amusing responses. Hot dogs - “well they probably do contain real dog!” Spotted dick - Kenneth Williams gif 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Shropshire Lad said: I had a couple of similar thoughts before I went with toad in the hole, I figured it would provoke the fewest amusing responses. Hot dogs - “well they probably do contain real dog!” Spotted dick - Kenneth Williams gif Coq au vin 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 Quote Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison has criticised animal rights activists as "shameful and un-Australian" after dozens were arrested in nationwide protests. On Monday, activists broke into abattoirs and chained themselves up to protest against the meat industry. More than 100 protesters also blocked one of Melbourne's main intersections, before many were forcibly removed. Mr Morrison said the activism was damaging to farmers' livelihoods. "This is just another form of activism that I think runs against the national interest, and the national interest is [farmers] being able to farm their own land," he told radio station 2GB. He later called on state authorities to bring "the full force of the law... against these green-collared criminals". Australia is second only to the US for meat consumption per person, according to the World Economic Forum. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-47848674 So apart from the "green collared criminals" which I think we'll be hearing more of, and the obvious nonsense that protesting something is shameful and unpatriotic. The fall out today from the Aussie public/press/politicians is really showing the wider world what an intolerant place it is. I've seen a few comments, presumably from Aussie meat-heads (fnar), calling them terrorists. Terrorists! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 8, 2019 Moderator Share Posted April 8, 2019 55 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said: The fall out today from the Aussie public/press/politicians is really showing the wider world what an intolerant place it is. If that's the impression you get of the place, I can only say that it's not like that at all. Sure (some of) the politicians are intolerant bells, but my experience of Aussies and Australia is of a pretty laid back, relaxed, friendly, warm country and people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 On 04/04/2019 at 17:50, Shropshire Lad said: Following on from the veg naming talk in the Brexit thread - I’m sure it’s been asked before, but people who are upset about the term veggie burgers or vegan sausage rolls because “they’re not burgers/sausages”, do they get upset because the recipe for toad in the hole traditionally contains no amphibians? As it happens I finally got round to trying a Greggs vegan sausage roll as it happened, yep tastes like an original meat one. Wouldn’t have noticed the difference. I think it's more banter rather than anyone getting upset. For me it's the same as drinking Diet Coke. There is nothing diet about it, if you want diet just drink water. Or buying a BMW for £60,000 and putting a diesel engine in it. What's the point? In the same way, if you want to eat vegetables, what is the point in disguising them as meat I am not taking my delicious rare steak and calling it a salad. *Disclaimer* - I eat meat but enjoy veggie meals on regular basis - I just like the point out the differences in our everyday behaviours and opinions that make this world a beautiful place to be in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mottaloo Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 On 04/04/2019 at 18:37, Xela said: Coq au vin Ah.....so you meant this : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 8, 2019 Author VT Supporter Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Mic09 said: In the same way, if you want to eat vegetables, what is the point in disguising them as meat I am not taking my delicious rare steak and calling it a salad. Just like I said in the Brexit thread, that is nowhere near the same thing. It's not disguising them as meat. It's producing something that tastes like meat that doesn't contain dead animals. Lots of vegetarians, myself included, think meat tastes great. We just don't want to eat it because of the whole having to kill animals part. If someone produces something that tastes the same (or close) but doesn't contain actual meat then that's something I and millions of other vegetarians will enjoy. The only reason they use the same names is so that people realise what they are. If something is packaged as a vegetarian lasagne or a vegetarian burger or vegetarian chicken nugget then we know immediately what that is. If it's called an "Italian layered vegetable and pasta dish" or a "Round vegetarian patty" or "vegetarian soya protein covered in breadcrumbs" then people aren't going to realise what that is. Comparing it to calling a steak a salad is nonsense. Edited April 8, 2019 by Stevo985 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 8, 2019 Author VT Supporter Share Posted April 8, 2019 The anger and confusion should be aimed at the "meat" products that contain very little meat. Sausages labelled as "pork sausages" when they contain about 25% meat. That's where they are "disguising them as meat" How can something explicitly labelled as vegetarian be disguising something as meat? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 37 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Just like I said in the Brexit thread, that is nowhere near the same thing. It's not disguising them as meat. It's producing something that tastes like meat that doesn't contain dead animals. Lots of vegetarians, myself included, think meat tastes great. We just don't want to eat it because of the whole having to kill animals part. If someone produces something that tastes the same (or close) but doesn't contain actual meat then that's something I and millions of other vegetarians will enjoy. The only reason they use the same names is so that people realise what they are. If something is packaged as a vegetarian lasagne or a vegetarian burger or vegetarian chicken nugget then we know immediately what that is. If it's called an "Italian layered vegetable and pasta dish" or a "Round vegetarian patty" or "vegetarian soya protein covered in breadcrumbs" then people aren't going to realise what that is. Comparing it to calling a steak a salad is nonsense. Like I said - it's banter, no one is serious about this... call a lettuce a Sunday roast for all I care however, "vegetarian soya protein covered in breadcrumbs" is a much more accurate description of what the meal is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 8, 2019 Author VT Supporter Share Posted April 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Mic09 said: Like I said - it's banter, no one is serious about this... call a lettuce a Sunday roast for all I care That's very strange banter. Whatever floats your boat I suppose. But your last sentence suggests you've missed the point again 1 minute ago, Mic09 said: however, "vegetarian soya protein covered in breadcrumbs" is a much more accurate description of what the meal is Yes it is. Again I think you've missed the point if you don't think we know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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