VILLAMARV Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 This was good https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2125423/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Anyway here's a youtube link to some journalism that gives you a peek behind the walls and fences 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Ethnic cleansing. This is the term that should be used. Apartheid is only a part of it, a tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted August 30, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 30, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted August 30, 2018 So let's keep those squatters stealing our land weak, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 The God of Abraham is an awful landlord. You can't keep sub letting the same house without informing the current tenants. Especially when they've given you their foreskin as a deposit. Can never get hold of the bugger when the boiler breaks every winter either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 12 hours ago, NurembergVillan said: @blandy Still find parallels between Nazi regime and this abhorrence to be offensive, wrong and counter-productive? I can think of another regime to annex land, have a superiority complex in their belief system, change law to accommodate for those beliefs, advocate for the eradication of the weak, torture, undermine, arrest on trumped up charges and the rest. It was made permanent, by decree, in 1943. There were eight years between the Enabling Act and the death camps. Hitler's plan originally was seemingly to remove the Jews from Germany and not to exterminate them. He even made a trade deal with Zionists in that time. So there was a lot that transpired in that time and that's where the parallels can be made. Shameful. It is like the common story of the abused becoming the abuser. This pot has been boiling well before the Ottoman Empire and it doesn't seem to be cooling off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 31, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, A'Villan said: @blandy Still find parallels between Nazi regime and this abhorrence to be offensive, wrong and counter-productive? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 "Take a look at your promised land, your deed is that gun in your hand..." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 11 minutes ago, blandy said: Yes. I actually thought you made sound reasoning as to why FWIW and are possibly more sound in judgement than me. You at least made me question myself. The reason why I don't object to the comparison is that I think that it serves as a reminder of how shameful and disastrous things can become, as well as their being obvious parallels to just about everything that came before the death camps. The situation is complex beyond my understanding and I certainly don't want to be contentious for the sake of it, but that's how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 31, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, A'Villan said: I actually thought you made sound reasoning as to why FWIW and are possibly more sound in judgement than me. You at least made me question myself. The reason why I don't object to the comparison is that I think that it serves as a reminder of how shameful and disastrous things can become, as well as their being obvious parallels to just about everything that came before the death camps. The situation is complex beyond my understanding and I certainly don't want to be contentious for the sake of it, but that's how I see it. Thank you. I didn't and don't want to repeat the same points, so that's why the short reply. It's possible things can get so much worse of course, and if they got to such a state, then...the world is even more done for than it already is. Yeah, it's beyond my understanding too. It's "easy" for us to see the horrors that Israeli forces have committed, or to read about the impact on the lives of the people crammed into the West Bank and the Gaza strip. The land thefts, discrimination, collective punishment and all the rest. It's a little mnore difficult to get information and stories about the murders and punishments and inhumanity of some of the Palestinian groups on their own people. Easy to see when they bomb a bus or fire some rockets, and then get a barrage of bombs in return. It's an utter mess and being made worse at the moment by Trump, by the Israeli Gov't, in part emboldened by Trump. It's getting worse not better. I don't think the leaders" of either side currently want peace. It very sadly suits them to have conflict, much to the detriment of the two societies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 47 minutes ago, blandy said: It's "easy" for us to see the horrors that Israeli forces have committed, or to read about the impact on the lives of the people crammed into the West Bank and the Gaza strip. The land thefts, discrimination, collective punishment and all the rest. It's a little mnore difficult to get information and stories about the murders and punishments and inhumanity of some of the Palestinian groups on their own people. Easy to see when they bomb a bus or fire some rockets, and then get a barrage of bombs in return. It's an utter mess and being made worse at the moment by Trump, by the Israeli Gov't, in part emboldened by Trump. It's getting worse not better. I don't think the leaders" of either side currently want peace. It very sadly suits them to have conflict, much to the detriment of the two societies. I can agree with much of this. To have any serious discussion around Israel the work of SIS/Mossad/US forces etc down the years has to be front and centre along with the actions of the various Palestinian groups, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and so on. None of them/us can claim any moral high ground over the last 70odd years. The day after Trump withdraws some millions of aid payments to the Palestinians it would be easy to point fingers and ignore the Israeli claims that some of these funds would fund or aid attacks against Israel. The point you raise about false-flag style events is interesting and surely part of the same discussion. But from all sides. No one can deny the Palestinian raids on Israeli military outposts. No one suggests that Palestinians haven't engaged in terrorist activities against the Israeli state. Trump is definitely making things worse right now and the Israeli political machine seems emboldened I totally agree. I don't agree with the statement about ease though, regarding the flow of information. Personally I think it is much easier to find pieces from the Israeli press or pro Israel pieces in the western media than it is to find work like that from Abby Martin over the last couple of years which I've posted a couple of examples from recently. Perhaps her blacklisting may explain why there haven't been many follow up pieces to camera? One of the problems to me is that both sides of the story are not given anywhere near the same exposure. The recent protests and murders got some exposure due to the medias fascination with body counts but it makes many of us wonder whether the news cycle would be dominated by such a story if it had happened in Michigan or Shropshire instead of an area of constant humanitarian crisis meaning it gets a mention if enough people have died. There surely comes a time when the wishes of the 'leaders' becomes of secondary importance to the people and while I accept after years of conflict the animosity runs high on both sides and one should be careful what you wish for in that regard whatever answer or solution there is - it must be non violent and the international community should be upholding it's own principles. They don't of course and it shows how toothless or indeed complicit they are. The main issue in the present day for many people is that the conflict is so one sided it is hard to take the Israeli argument seriously. Rock throwing can end up with decades in prison while shooting children in the head at point blank range goes unpunished. Whatever the aims or ideals are in an ideological sense pails in comparison to the obvious lack of humanity. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 5 hours ago, blandy said: Thank you. I didn't and don't want to repeat the same points, so that's why the short reply. It's possible things can get so much worse of course, and if they got to such a state, then...the world is even more done for than it already is. Yeah, it's beyond my understanding too. It's "easy" for us to see the horrors that Israeli forces have committed, or to read about the impact on the lives of the people crammed into the West Bank and the Gaza strip. The land thefts, discrimination, collective punishment and all the rest. It's a little mnore difficult to get information and stories about the murders and punishments and inhumanity of some of the Palestinian groups on their own people. Easy to see when they bomb a bus or fire some rockets, and then get a barrage of bombs in return. It's an utter mess and being made worse at the moment by Trump, by the Israeli Gov't, in part emboldened by Trump. It's getting worse not better. I don't think the leaders" of either side currently want peace. It very sadly suits them to have conflict, much to the detriment of the two societies. That is a pretty standard AIPAC etc. talking point. It is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 31, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 31, 2018 4 hours ago, VILLAMARV said: The main issue in the present day for many people is that the conflict is so one sided it is hard to take the Israeli argument seriously. Rock throwing can end up with decades in prison while shooting children in the head at point blank range goes unpunished. Whatever the aims or ideals are in an ideological sense pails in comparison to the obvious lack of humanity. Absolutely. Complete agreement from me, there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted August 31, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 31, 2018 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 On 29/08/2018 at 10:34, OutByEaster? said: I'm a little off topic here I realise - but by their nature, aren't all nations racist endeavours? They're the drawing of lines on the ground and saying "people on this side of the line are different from people on that side of the line" maybe they're not always on the lines of race by physical characteristic - but they create "peoples" and sects and the idea that they are fundamentally different. They're inherently wrong in that regard, at least in so far as that nationalism is a very peculiar construct. After religion, it's the one I'm hoping humanity outgrows next. 15 hours ago, VILLAMARV said: I can agree with much of this. To have any serious discussion around Israel the work of SIS/Mossad/US forces etc down the years has to be front and centre along with the actions of the various Palestinian groups, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and so on. None of them/us can claim any moral high ground over the last 70odd years. The day after Trump withdraws some millions of aid payments to the Palestinians it would be easy to point fingers and ignore the Israeli claims that some of these funds would fund or aid attacks against Israel. The point you raise about false-flag style events is interesting and surely part of the same discussion. But from all sides. No one can deny the Palestinian raids on Israeli military outposts. No one suggests that Palestinians haven't engaged in terrorist activities against the Israeli state. Trump is definitely making things worse right now and the Israeli political machine seems emboldened I totally agree. I don't agree with the statement about ease though, regarding the flow of information. Personally I think it is much easier to find pieces from the Israeli press or pro Israel pieces in the western media than it is to find work like that from Abby Martin over the last couple of years which I've posted a couple of examples from recently. Perhaps her blacklisting may explain why there haven't been many follow up pieces to camera? One of the problems to me is that both sides of the story are not given anywhere near the same exposure. The recent protests and murders got some exposure due to the medias fascination with body counts but it makes many of us wonder whether the news cycle would be dominated by such a story if it had happened in Michigan or Shropshire instead of an area of constant humanitarian crisis meaning it gets a mention if enough people have died. There surely comes a time when the wishes of the 'leaders' becomes of secondary importance to the people and while I accept after years of conflict the animosity runs high on both sides and one should be careful what you wish for in that regard whatever answer or solution there is - it must be non violent and the international community should be upholding it's own principles. They don't of course and it shows how toothless or indeed complicit they are. The main issue in the present day for many people is that the conflict is so one sided it is hard to take the Israeli argument seriously. Rock throwing can end up with decades in prison while shooting children in the head at point blank range goes unpunished. Whatever the aims or ideals are in an ideological sense pails in comparison to the obvious lack of humanity. A little off topic, this speech in 1940 is what the Toothbrush moustache should be remembered for. A message to soldiers that should be heard by both the Israeli, Palestinian and anyone of this world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 On 31/08/2018 at 13:19, blandy said: Thank you. I didn't and don't want to repeat the same points, so that's why the short reply. It's possible things can get so much worse of course, and if they got to such a state, then...the world is even more done for than it already is. Yeah, it's beyond my understanding too. It's "easy" for us to see the horrors that Israeli forces have committed, or to read about the impact on the lives of the people crammed into the West Bank and the Gaza strip. The land thefts, discrimination, collective punishment and all the rest. It's a little mnore difficult to get information and stories about the murders and punishments and inhumanity of some of the Palestinian groups on their own people. Easy to see when they bomb a bus or fire some rockets, and then get a barrage of bombs in return. It's an utter mess and being made worse at the moment by Trump, by the Israeli Gov't, in part emboldened by Trump. It's getting worse not better. I don't think the leaders" of either side currently want peace. It very sadly suits them to have conflict, much to the detriment of the two societies. This really is centrist 'both-sides-ism' at it's absolute worst. What would a Palestinian society wanting 'peace' actually involve? Presumably, giving up any form of resistance to Israel, which can continue to dominate and starve the people packed into the Gaza Strip without adequate food, construction materials or medicine, 'peacefully'. There won't be 'peace' when one side is systematically destroying the other. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 1, 2018 Moderator Share Posted September 1, 2018 8 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: This really is centrist 'both-sides-ism' at it's absolute worst. I’m sorry you think that, sorry because it’s dismissive of a different view to yours, sorry because it’s deemed bad, sorry because it’s “tagging” a view. I’ll be honest, the Israel Palestinian oppression and horror isn’t a big deal in my life it doesn’t affect my life. It’s awful, but the bus turns up, I go to work, or whatever. It’s a way away. I admit I don’t know jack. i probably am centrist, by this week’s definition. Previously I was left or socialist, or etc. Whatever, it’s all cool, all a label. Now I’m centrist both sides ism. Sorry for trying to work out how to make sense of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 3, 2018 Moderator Share Posted September 3, 2018 Israel drafting law to make raising the Palestinian flag inside Israel illegal. One year in prison for this heinous crime. Nothing to see here, nothing fascistic here at all 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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