Israel, Palestine and Iran

[KenjiOgiwara]

Probably been done to death, but why are Israel even in Eurovision or anything to do with Europe. Never understood that. 

[sne]

9 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Probably been done to death, but why are Israel even in Eurovision or anything to do with Europe. Never understood that. 

They are very gay friendly and the people running the Eurovision are both part of that community and very much catering towards that community. (obviously not THE major reason)

Also imagine they are shipping in with quite a lot of money.

As for Israel it's a good publicity opportunity to show how friendly and open they are while at the same going on like South Africa during the apartheid.

When it comes to sports it's simply down to security reasons.

Edited May 21, 2019 by sne

[Chindie]

7 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Probably been done to death, but why are Israel even in Eurovision or anything to do with Europe. Never understood that. 

Israel's public broadcasting company is part of the European Broadcasting Union, which arranges Eurovision, and each member gets to enter a contestant.

Israel is usually aligned with Europe because it's the closest regional block to it it could actually operate in. Most of the Middle East either rejects the existence of Israel or has a very tense relationship with it, so Europe is the only region it could be in.

[KenjiOgiwara]

My point is that Europe should reject them. They should not be a participant in anything called European whatsoever. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by KenjiOgiwara

[bickster]

2 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

My point is that Europe should reject them. They should not be a participant in anything called European whatsoever. 

Europe created them

EDIT: It's also not called European anything

[KenjiOgiwara]

So the UEFA European championship doesn't exist? Thought it did. 

[bickster]

39 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

So the UEFA European championship doesn't exist? Thought it did. 

Define Europe? It's a serious question

[Chindie]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

Define Europe? It's a serious question

Literally had lectures on this at uni.

You can't. Whatever categories you choose to define it define what results you get.

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Chindie said:

Literally had lectures on this at uni.

You can't. Whatever categories you choose to define it define what results you get.

Agreed. That's because it has no logical basis in the first place. Continents strictly speaking are defined by tectonic plates largely. In logical terms, Europe and Asia are all part of the same Eurasian Plate. Israel sits at the edge of the Arabian plate very close to the European and African plate boundaries but Arabia is considered part of "Asia" politically but that is nonsense as well.

Europe is wherever you want it to be within reason because it really doesn't exist any other way

 

[KenjiOgiwara]

35 minutes ago, bickster said:

Define Europe? It's a serious question

Maybe I am stupid, but I thought Europe were defined pretty clearly demographically and geographically. Always thought it was one big europe from the urals to the Black sea and mediterranean through the turkish sea I can never remember the name of. Another europe was said to be the same area excluding western russia, though this was what I learned at school 25 years ago. 

Either way Israel was never considered European from what I know, except in tectonic theory, but by that logic most of Asia is European and vice versa. 

But interesting question I haven't thought much about it. 

To me personally I'd call Israel the middle East, or parts of Asia og maybe Africa, but definately not Europe. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by KenjiOgiwara

[VILLAMARV]

"Countries" and "Borders" are such quaint little concepts aren't they

[bickster]

4 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I'd call Israel the middle East

What continent is that in?

4 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

To me personally I'd call Israel the middle East, or parts of Asia og maybe Africa, but definately not Europe. 

The Northern Coast of the Med is Europe, The southern is Africa but the eastern coast is? Well yes it's "Arabia" but that isn't considered a continent and it's considered to be "Asia" but even then it isn't really, it's just political expediency that puts it in Asia. It's not really Asia, Europe or Africa but it's also not a continent.

Now given that, if the vast majority of nations in that region are lumped into Asia, Israel has to be lumped into Europe, well because they don't get on. It's a fudge granted but that fudge really is of Europe's making, hence why we as Europeans have to take Israel because it's our fault it even exists.

 

[KenjiOgiwara]

4 hours ago, bickster said:

What continent is that in?

Asia. 

 

[bickster]

4 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Asia. 

 

Why is it in Asia though? There's actually no logical basis for that, it's in Asia because it suits political agendas and not because it fits any logical definition of a continent, which brings us back to why Israel is lumped into Europe, it's basically to keep the peace

[KenjiOgiwara]

Because it's not within the agreed upon definition of Europe and Africa is very well defined as a continent. That leaves Asia.

I don't think it's any political agendas in defining Europe. If that was the case there's a lot of eastern European countries that wouldn't be in there, but they are. 

[bickster]

5 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

agreed upon definition of Europe

Agreed by whom?

5 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I don't think it's any political agendas in defining Europe. If that was the case there's a lot of eastern European countries that wouldn't be in there, but they are

Europe is in itself a political construct, there is no other reason for it to be considered a continent in its own right

[Chindie]

5 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Because it's not within the agreed upon definition of Europe and Africa is very well defined as a continent. That leaves Asia.

I don't think it's any political agendas in defining Europe. If that was the case there's a lot of eastern European countries that wouldn't be in there, but they are. 

The problem is there isn't a single definition of Europe. Whatever way you choose to define it is contradicted by another way of defining it that is as valid, you can even undermine it using the same definition you're relying on - Cyprus everyone would agree is in Europe, but geographically it isn't depending on where you draw the line.

Israel isn't in Europe by most definitions, certainly not the strictly geographic ones, but developed countries have to align and form blocks in various fields and ones closest to Israel don't recognise it as a country at best, and at worst wouldn't be upset to see it no longer exist, so the you're left with the option of aligning it with the nearest viable group. Which is Europe. Of course it also helps that Israel is perhaps closest culturally to Europe as well, and Europe itself is happy to have an affluent partner happy to be part of the gang in many respects.

[KenjiOgiwara]

And I completely disagree on that, and from what I remember so does the scholars of the books I had

[bickster]

21 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

And I completely disagree on that,

On what exactly?

[Chindie]

2 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

And I completely disagree on that, and from what I remember so does the scholars of the books I had

What do you disagree on? Europe isn't unifyingly definable. Even if you go purely geographically, the delineation between what is Europe and what is Asia has moved over time and areas of what most would consider Europe aren't. This is because a European continent, in geographic terms, doesn't exist. What is thought of as Europe is a construct of various considerations to define a peninsula of the massive Eurasian continent.

If you extend it beyond pure geography it gets even more complicated. Politics? You can break that down in dozens of ways. Most people wouldn't put Azerbaijan in a map of Europe, but politically it leans in many ways more towards Europe (and it also takes part in Eurovision). Same goes for Georgia, but geographically Georgia is mostly considered Asian. Russia and Turkey are both considered trans-continental, in opposite directions, but considering either as European or Asian is a minefield so everyone just refers to them as Eurasian (or in conveniently forget about the bits of them that don't fit the narrative - Russia is seen as basically Eastern European, ignoring that for most of the country its population looks rather more Asian, and Turkey is just the Middle-East and that bit of Istanbul inside Europe, don't worry about it).

Cultural? That's another minefield. Europe doesn't have unified culture. It's constituent parts are quite different. A Spaniard, obviously European, going to live in Oslo is going to have a culture shock. We see it all the time in football, where players coming from even quite similar parts of Europe struggle to settle, even when there isn't a language issue. If you dial culture away from generalisations into more specific areas - religion, language, food culture, social culture, 'Western' life principles, you find even more that 'Europe' isn't definable on that basis.

And on and on. Europe is a construct of the amalgamation of various factors to try to define part of a huge continent as different, where each defining factor at some point contradicts all the others.

Does this mean Israel is Europe? No... But taking into account the other factors in play, it's not a shock that Israel in some respects joins in with Europe.