blandy Posted August 28, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2018 3 hours ago, villakram said: 7 hours ago, blandy said: It's OK and allowable to criticise and condemn the Israeli Gov't for implementing a discriminatory and racist law. It is not OK to say that Israel as a nation is somehow fundamentally in just existing "racist" (despite or because of the good or bad actions or laws of it's democratically elected Gov't). Why is it not OK to say that? Who gave you this authority to determine what I may say? To be clear, it's not "me" saying it's "not OK". I have no authority, not do I want any. It's the IHRA definition and examples which say it's not OK. Many organisations and bodies have adopted that definition, and their disciplinary processes etc. give them authority to act if/when members then breach that definition. It doesn't prevent anyone saying anything, but it does identify it as anti-semitic and allow follow up action to be legitimately taken, similarly to other definitions and rules about racist language and behaviour more widely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 28, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, villakram said: I note how in a none too subtle way you have changed what was said and hence the argument you try to shut down (channeling Mark Regev par excellence). The existence per say of a specific nation is not what is under discussion but the establishment of a very specific state with a long documented and very specific set of founding principles which have been followed to this day. You might not think it's subtle - but it's too subtle for me to even notice I did what you say I've done. I don't really get your second point here, at all. Sorry. What you've written, the way I read it..., well it doesn't come across well at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, blandy said: To be clear, it's not "me" saying it's "not OK". I have no authority, not do I want any. It's the IHRA definition and examples which say it's not OK. Many organisations and bodies have adopted that definition, and their disciplinary processes etc. give them authority to act if/when members then breach that definition. It doesn't prevent anyone saying anything, but it does identify it as anti-semitic and allow follow up action to be legitimately taken, similarly to other definitions and rules about racist language and behaviour more widely. Who are the IHRA? Who funds the IHRA? What legitimacy, expert, moral, ethical or otherwise does this body have? You understand the pressure exerted on politicians and on companies etc. to tow the line, least the anti-semitic attack machine be unleashed. They are akin to the NRA defining gun policy... or Turkeys and something or other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, blandy said: You might not think it's subtle - but it's too subtle for me to even notice I did what you say I've done. I don't really get your second point here, at all. Sorry. What you've written, the way I read it..., well it doesn't come across well at all. Ok, perhaps it is unintentional, but as written, your point is in regards the notion of... the fundamental principle of establishing the state of Israel or a state per say. My point is that nobody is arguing against that as a principle or idea. What is argued against is the actual state of Israel with its long rap sheet. I may well have written that poorly, but Regev and the rest of the Israeli propaganda services are expert at such slight of hand. It's so annoying the free pass they get in the media when they do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 28, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, villakram said: Who are the IHRA? Who funds the IHRA? What legitimacy, expert, moral, ethical or otherwise does this body have? You understand the pressure exerted on politicians and on companies etc. to tow the line, least the anti-semitic attack machine be unleashed. They are akin to the NRA defining gun policy... or Turkeys and something or other. The NRA lobbies for "gun rights" in the USA, it is a one nation internal lobbying group on a single issue. The IHRA was set up in Sweden, has 30+ democratic nations as members and is devoted to education research and remembrance about the holocaust. They're not a body selling anything, or promoting anything. The comparison is wretched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 28, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2018 3 hours ago, villakram said: Ok, perhaps it is unintentional, but as written, your point is in regards the notion of... the fundamental principle of establishing the state of Israel or a state per say. My point is that nobody is arguing against that as a principle or idea. What is argued against is the actual state of Israel with its long rap sheet. I may well have written that poorly, but Regev and the rest of the Israeli propaganda services are expert at such slight of hand. It's so annoying the free pass they get in the media when they do this. Ah, OK. I think I get your point. What I was trying to do was to say that the example of anti-semitism from the IHRA that people take issue with - "the state of Israel is a racist endeavour" - is basically saying that if someone were to claim that (in effect) "Israel has no right to exist, because setting it up, it's very foundation was racist....ergo it is an illegitimate state, the people there have no right to be there...and therefore they get and deserve what's coming to them" - that kind of thing is anti-semitic. I agree with them it is. I'm trying to say, however that saying and criticising the Israeli Gov't (or any other part of the establishment) has done a racist thing is not anti-semitic, under the IHRA (or any other) definition. Is that clearer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, blandy said: The NRA lobbies for "gun rights" in the USA, it is a one nation internal lobbying group on a single issue. The IHRA was set up in Sweden, has 30+ democratic nations as members and is devoted to education research and remembrance about the holocaust. They're not a body selling anything, or promoting anything. The comparison is wretched. Fair comment. Re-defining the word semitic has a much broader goal than remembering the holocaust however. There are many Semitic peoples. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Israel seems to have a ghetto and second class citizens. A million miles from the left wing dream many of its founders cherished. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, villakram said: per say I have more than a little sympathy with the arguments you've made but it's per se. Edited August 28, 2018 by snowychap 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, snowychap said: I have more than a little sympathy with the arguments you've made but it's per se. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 28, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2018 7 hours ago, peterms said: I think the closest parallel with Israel is apartheid South Africa: expelling people from their own land, tightly limiting movement within the country for the expropriated group, establishing in law a racist priority of one ethnic group over another, with very different rights. Yes, that's a much better and wiser parallel Quote Similarities with Nazi Germany would include things like ... However, when any comparison with Nazi Germany is made, it is assumed the comparison must be to the whole machinery of the holocaust, even if a much more limited comparison is intended. There are a few things here. Firstly, the actions of Israel in terms of land theft, repression, killings, disproportionate force, targeting people, shooting them, destroying schools hospitals, olive groves, farms, collective punishment, punishing families for the "crimes" of their relatives.. the list is endless and disgraceful. It's an utter stain on humanity. Total agreement there. It's been abhorrent. The Nazi comparison though...there's the big elephant in the room, the monumental horrific scale of genocide, the targeting of all Jews, Gays, minorities, communists, other stuff mentioned before...it's just a totally different scale, and picking (relatively) smaller examples from their other appalling acts..I just don't think it's right to use "of course, I'm not saying everything the Nazis did, just the property theft and the ...whatever". It's impossible to ignore the murder and eugenics and etc. on millions of people, almost none of whom had done the slightest thing to warrant a fraction of the cruelty. There are obviously Arabs, Palestinians and people of various minority groups living happy, peaceful lives in Israel, they are not picked out and marched off to concentration camps...all this we all know. So as bad as many actions have been any comparison with the Nazis is just...at best misguided and at worst maliciously offensive. Dave's right as well, Israel didn't used to be as extreme as it is. There was a lot of communal, liberal, open, engaged spirit and ethos. It's so sad it's spiralling into worse behaviour and it's ingrained it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 1 hour ago, blandy said: The Nazi comparison though...there's the big elephant in the room, the monumental horrific scale of genocide, the targeting of all Jews, Gays, minorities, communists, other stuff mentioned before...it's just a totally different scale, Yes, indisputably. Two things flow from this, and neither of them involve suggesting that the scale of what happened in Germany and what is now happening in Israel is of a similar degree. From the perspective of Israelis, and I guess for many non-Israeli Jews, there will be a feeling of revulsion that a comparison could even be made, regardless of reservations about scale, which they may see as nitpicking. From the point of view of sympathisers with the Palestinians (and I think Bicks touched on this earlier) there is a feeling of incomprehension that a people who have in living memory been treated as subhuman, the Untermenschen, with that ideology used to cloak appalling treatment, should be so ready to apply to the Palestinians a set of measures which are also based on the idea of the Untermenschen, who need be afforded no respect or rights, whose lives are worth little, whose claims to property and land count for nothing. It's like, how could you come out the other end of this horror, and feel justified in acting in this way. This is not to say that either Israelis or Jews should be held to a higher standard of behaviour than others, more that their past suffering does not excuse their appalling treatment of an entirely different and innocent group of people. And that the utter lack of empathy and decency shown by the Israeli regime is both incomprehensible and unforgivable. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 3 hours ago, blandy said: It's impossible to ignore the murder and eugenics and etc. on millions of people, almost none of whom had done the slightest thing to warrant a fraction of the cruelty. There are obviously Arabs, Palestinians and people of various minority groups living happy, peaceful lives in Israel, they are not picked out and marched off to concentration camps...all this we all know. When Murder and Eugenics is the name of the game I honestly struggle to see the distinction I'm afraid. Both States/Regimes are guilty of these crimes as proven fact are they not. What does scale have to do with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 28, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2018 2 hours ago, peterms said: Yes, indisputably. Two things flow from this, and neither of them involve suggesting that the scale of what happened in Germany and what is now happening in Israel is of a similar degree. From the perspective of Israelis, and I guess for many non-Israeli Jews, there will be a feeling of revulsion that a comparison could even be made, regardless of reservations about scale, which they may see as nitpicking. From the point of view of sympathisers with the Palestinians (and I think Bicks touched on this earlier) there is a feeling of incomprehension that a people who have in living memory been treated as subhuman, the Untermenschen, with that ideology used to cloak appalling treatment, should be so ready to apply to the Palestinians a set of measures which are also based on the idea of the Untermenschen, who need be afforded no respect or rights, whose lives are worth little, whose claims to property and land count for nothing. It's like, how could you come out the other end of this horror, and feel justified in acting in this way. This is not to say that either Israelis or Jews should be held to a higher standard of behaviour than others, more that their past suffering does not excuse their appalling treatment of an entirely different and innocent group of people. And that the utter lack of empathy and decency shown by the Israeli regime is both incomprehensible and unforgivable. Yeah, absolutely. Other than the choice of the word “nitpicking”, which I suspect underplays the emotion to a huge degree. lts two things utterly separate, yet connected. Because of history, there’s a real lesson in basic civility and human interaction. The people on the end of perceived orvreal anti semitism are aghast at their treatment, and 99+% of them are innocent of any remote wrongdoing. They’re getting the ire from anti semites. That’s so wrong and just has to stop. On the other hand, genuine valid abhorrence at what has been done by elements of Israel’s “state” shouldn’t be stopped or smothered. I think when the two things get conflated, whether by Israel’s propaganda machine, or by opponents of Israel’s actions, that’s where the fault line lies. I think the labour arguments about definitions are not the worst part of that, but they are to me a part. I just don’t understand the reflex to call back to Naziism. Just take away the reference, treat it all for what it is, not what was 70+ years ago. The two things are different, hugely so. Just leave nazi references well out of it. They’re not right, whether “a little bit like” or direct claimed parallels. It’s counter productive, innacurate, offensive and wrong. Solve, or try to, todays problems not those of the 1940s. It’s not the same, no matter what parallels people think they see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 27 minutes ago, blandy said: I think when the two things get conflated, whether by Israel’s propaganda machine, or by opponents of Israel’s actions, that’s where the fault line lies. I think the labour arguments about definitions are not the worst part of that, but they are to me a part. I just don’t understand the reflex to call back to Naziism. Just take away the reference, treat it all for what it is, not what was 70+ years ago. The two things are different, hugely so. Just leave nazi references well out of it. They’re not right, whether “a little bit like” or direct claimed parallels. It’s counter productive, innacurate, offensive and wrong. Why are they 'wrong'? Counter productive, inaccurate, offensive - no problem with that. Wrong says something else. Frankly, this 'don't nazi' stuff is silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted August 29, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 29, 2018 14 hours ago, blandy said: None of that however means that the existence of the state of Palestine, Britain, America, Germany...etc. is " a racist endeavour. The IHRA is right with their example. I'm a little off topic here I realise - but by their nature, aren't all nations racist endeavours? They're the drawing of lines on the ground and saying "people on this side of the line are different from people on that side of the line" maybe they're not always on the lines of race by physical characteristic - but they create "peoples" and sects and the idea that they are fundamentally different. They're inherently wrong in that regard, at least in so far as that nationalism is a very peculiar construct. After religion, it's the one I'm hoping humanity outgrows next. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 29, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 29, 2018 8 hours ago, snowychap said: Why are they 'wrong'? Counter productive, inaccurate, offensive - no problem with that. Wrong says something else. Frankly, this 'don't nazi' stuff is silly. Wrong - as in unsuitable, undesirable, inappropriate. Like wot dikshunry sez. and no, this 'don't nazi' stuff is not silly at all. Quite the opposite. Just ask Ken Livingstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 2 hours ago, blandy said: Like wot dikshunry sez. Astonishing. That's me out with anything else you have to say on any matter. Goodbye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 7 hours ago, blandy said: Wrong - as in unsuitable, undesirable, inappropriate. Like wot dikshunry sez. and no, this 'don't nazi' stuff is not silly at all. Quite the opposite. Just ask Ken Livingstone. Why are you so fascinated with the Nazi angle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 29, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 29, 2018 22 minutes ago, villakram said: Why are you so fascinated with the Nazi angle Um, I don't know how to break this to you gently Akram, but I think you might have got entirely the wrong end of the stick, there.... Anyway, have a youtube link of the latest Corbynite away day, after their cultural awareness session. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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