Israel, Palestine and Iran

[HanoiVillan]

American military maneuvers worth noting:

 

[A'Villan]

On 02/09/2018 at 00:25, HanoiVillan said:

This really is centrist 'both-sides-ism' at it's absolute worst. What would a Palestinian society wanting 'peace' actually involve? Presumably, giving up any form of resistance to Israel, which can continue to dominate and starve the people packed into the Gaza Strip without adequate food, construction materials or medicine, 'peacefully'. 

There won't be 'peace' when one side is systematically destroying the other. 

That is where the conflict is at today. I don't think it's fair to cast blandy's POV aside on the notion that Israel has taken things to the most hideous of extremes. The history is long and complex.

There was a point in the conflict before Israel inflicted the kind of trauma that we see today. Though what's being inflicted by Israel is nothing short of an atrocity and should be condemned.

I can't remember the content very well but I was reading about the days in which the land was part of the Ottoman Empire and the conflict was very different then. Squabbles over livestock and such. Attempts from one culture to have the others legitimate purchase of land made illegal under the Ottoman Empire law.

I don't in any way mean to justify the actions and tactics employed by Israel in what I'm about to say, and please forgive any mistakes in my writing or understanding, but one recurring theme that appears throughout my reading on the subject is that Palestinians have long taken issue with Jews living in the area. That may be for good reason, that I can't ascertain or comment on. One of the more pivotal points in the conflict seems to of been when the UN split the land between the two and Israel accepted the terms but Palestinians didn't. What that means exactly I don't know, I'm just paraphrasing my reading. But it seems to be a trigger point in Israel's annexing of land.

Obviously there's no escaping the fact that what's ensuing is unacceptable and tragic. I know what it feels like to have life threatened by the very structures that are meant to protect and uphold justice and proper conduct. It's a very scary and harrowing thing to experience. Fortunately my ordeal was short lived. I can only imagine what it is like for all those innocents caught up in the constant catastrophe, living in poverty and uncertainty because of the desire of one culture to annex land and impose cultural superiority over the other.

 

 

 

[peterms]

42 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

There was a point in the conflict before Israel inflicted the kind of trauma that we see today.

It's been going on a very long time.

Here is a letter signed by Albert Einstein and Hannah Arendt among others, in 1948, deeply critical of the actions of some prominent Israeli people and groups.

The letter is also noteworthy in not being afraid of comparing these actions to those of Nazis and fascists; this at a time when the holocaust was a much more recent memory.

Quote

December 4, 1948

New Palestine Party
Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed

TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:  (emphasis added by Michael R. Burch)

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents. [See Note A]

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement. [See Note B]

The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future. [See Note C]

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants “240 men, women, and children” and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.

During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

(signed)

ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. ORLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGER, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SCHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. ZNGER, IRMA WOLPE, STEFAN WOLPE

 

[chrisp65]

under the new rules, all that signed that would be anti semite racists, including Einstein and Rabbi Cardozo

 

[blandy]

8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

under the new rules, all that signed that would be anti semite racists, including Einstein and Rabbi Cardozo

Not to my reading, as the whole letter and criticism are of a political party and are commendably clear about who they are criticising and for what and why.

[chrisp65]

56 minutes ago, blandy said:

Not to my reading, as the whole letter and criticism are of a political party and are commendably clear about who they are criticising and for what and why.

The letter calls out by name Menachem Begin, who went on to become the 6th PM of Israel.

It calls his party fascist. It calls their actions fascist. It warns America against accidental support of fascism.

If you're saying I'm allowed to compare political parties and named individuals but not the abstract concept of the state then I'd suggest those examples haven't helped at least one of us understand exactly what they want racism against Israel or the Israeli's to mean.

I would wager that if a Labour politician was recorded today saying Benjamin Netanyahu and his political party were fascists terrorists preaching racial superiority, that would have the usual suspects calling them out as anti semites. Followed by a vox pop of people saying they always used to vote Labour but now they're afraid to live in this country.

I'm genuinely not trying to offend anyone, and I've just remembered that a week or two ago I said I'd stop chipping in on this and just bite my lip.

 

[blandy]

33 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

The letter calls out by name Menachem Begin, who went on to become the 6th PM of Israel.

It calls his party fascist. It calls their actions fascist. It warns America against accidental support of fascism.

If you're saying I'm allowed to compare political parties and named individuals but not the abstract concept of the state then I'd suggest those examples haven't helped at least one of us understand exactly what they want racism against Israel or the Israeli's to mean.

I would wager that if a Labour politician was recorded today saying Benjamin Netanyahu and his political party were fascists terrorists preaching racial superiority, that would have the usual suspects calling them out as anti semites. Followed by a vox pop of people saying they always used to vote Labour but now they're afraid to live in this country.

I'm genuinely not trying to offend anyone, and I've just remembered that a week or two ago I said I'd stop chipping in on this and just bite my lip.

 

There's nothing remotely in the IHRA definition that covers criticising, however harshly, an opposition party for its policies. Or for calling out a named individual for horrible acts or statements or fascism. These are all things which are excluded as anti-semitic, because they could be made (and are) of other nations "However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic" further, the examples in the area of groups or individual specifically say that [we] should not "accuse Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group" and the letter goes nowhere near doing that - it keeps to the point about a specific party and persons.

I concede that were the complaint to be made against a government the argument (and my point) is not so absolutely clear cut, but I still believe that the "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country.. point means it would be fine.

I agree you'd probably get people from lobbyists to others with an agenda  anti Labour or whatever, claiming all kinds, but the definition would render that as exactly what you imply - propaganda with no genuine validity

 

[A'Villan]

47 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

The letter calls out by name Menachem Begin, who went on to become the 6th PM of Israel.

It calls his party fascist. It calls their actions fascist. It warns America against accidental support of fascism.

If you're saying I'm allowed to compare political parties and named individuals but not the abstract concept of the state then I'd suggest those examples haven't helped at least one of us understand exactly what they want racism against Israel or the Israeli's to mean.

I would wager that if a Labour politician was recorded today saying Benjamin Netanyahu and his political party were fascists terrorists preaching racial superiority, that would have the usual suspects calling them out as anti semites. Followed by a vox pop of people saying they always used to vote Labour but now they're afraid to live in this country.

I'm genuinely not trying to offend anyone, and I've just remembered that a week or two ago I said I'd stop chipping in on this and just bite my lip.

 

Why bite your lip? I think given the circumstances contentious discussions are required, and those with perspective and insight are invaluable.

Warning America against accidental support of fascism? Because America has never sponsored or committed acts of terrorism domestically or internationally in order to wage war for economic gain. Has never had a system whereby a race is considered inferior or a political system whereby capitalism serves the financial elite and their interests. As Orwell said, fascism is an over-used and abused word that basically just means a bully. But as far as other definitions of fascism go America ticks most boxes, except it is exempt from such a label because of it's democratic packaging.

Accidental support my ass. Which country do you think inspired the type of commentary we saw from the Israeli PM, about the weak being erased from history and alliances being made with the strong under the cultivation of a militant state, most of all? I'm guessing it would be land of the free home of the brave, indigenous holocaust and the home of the slave. The United States.

[peterms]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

I would wager that if a Labour politician was recorded today saying Benjamin Netanyahu and his political party were fascists terrorists preaching racial superiority, that would have the usual suspects calling them out as anti semites.

Yes, that's very clearly the case.

But more than that, they want to make the connection that any serious criticism of the Israeli regime is a denial of the right of the Jewish people to exist safely, and is therefore antisemitic.

Such a connection would not have been made in Hannah Arendt's time, and if it was, she would have called it out dor what it is - bullshit.

[chrisp65]

Just now, A'Villan said:

Why bite your lip?

Well, there's a very long 'why'.

First off, I'm happier learning than demanding the world stops at the point I last understood it.

Second, I'm here for some r&r, not to get angry with one dimensional strangers.

Then, there's appearing to be part of the now demonised cult of Corbyn or 'loonie left'. I am a bit loonie left, always have been, but not currently a Labour voter. But I do want Corbyn to be everything good leftie types are willing him to be.

Then, I'd rather be properly listening to music rather than arguing over that IHRA document and it's late addition of some clunking 'examples'. It's use as a weapon against people that dare crit the Israeli war machine, by dancing around the wording on the head of a pin and legitimising the call of 'racist' for the exclusive use of one side only. A document that wants an exception to be set for Israeli's whilst demanding Israel and Israeli's must not be subject to exceptionalism. It disappears up it's on examples.  

Plus, it's getting a bit repetitive now, I think we all know where we all stand.

it's also actual had the reverse impact to its apparent intention. Never in my life have I used the word nazi as much as in the last few weeks. So that went well, didn't it.

[A'Villan]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Well, there's a very long 'why'.

First off, I'm happier learning than demanding the world stops at the point I last understood it.

Second, I'm here for some r&r, not to get angry with one dimensional strangers.

Then, there's appearing to be part of the now demonised cult of Corbyn or 'loonie left'. I am a bit loonie left, always have been, but not currently a Labour voter. But I do want Corbyn to be everything good leftie types are willing him to be.

Then, I'd rather be properly listening to music rather than arguing over that IHRA document and it's late addition of some clunking 'examples'. It's use as a weapon against people that dare crit the Israeli war machine, by dancing around the wording on the head of a pin and legitimising the call of 'racist' for the exclusive use of one side only. A document that wants an exception to be set for Israeli's whilst demanding Israel and Israeli's must not be subject to exceptionalism. It disappears up it's on examples.  

Plus, it's getting a bit repetitive now, I think we all know where we all stand.

it's also actual had the reverse impact to its apparent intention. Never in my life have I used the word nazi as much as in the last few weeks. So that went well, didn't it.

While I'm not entirely sure what has triggered your first point or what it's in relation to, it's an example of why I made comment on invaluable perspectives. Discussions on such challenging topics can be difficult and frustrating unless approached with a discerning mind. So if you have the time and interest I would encourage further input, that being the reason for my questioning you holding your tongue, I simply enjoyed reading your view and trying to understand it.

On your second point I don't understand who the one dimensional stranger would be, but perhaps I don't need to either, I think the less antagonism the better. I didn't mean to suggest that you should need to be angered by any of this either. The only reason I can imagine anger being stirred is out of recognition for the tragedy that Palestinians are facing or a frustration with where other people stand on the matter, possibly a combination. But I feel as though I'm just announcing my ignorance as to the meaning of your post at this point.

Appearing to be part of the demonised loonie left? Way to look at yourself through the eyes of people who hate you! I hope this isn't really a concern of yours unless it carries unfavourable consequences as a result, even then if you believe in the policy and the person, better to show support than succumb to apathy and potentially an outcome you don't align with. I will have to do some reading on this Corbyn.

I can totally understand your stance regarding the notion to tip-toe around wording and critique because it's supposed to be a delicate issue. The way it seems to me, is that Israeli actions are hypocritical at best. Which pales in comparison as an issue when you consider what some people are going through as a consequence.

I think blandy offers a well reasoned approach to the discussion as well though. It may not have been blandy's intent or the reality, but I took the rationale to be a little more considered than purely not wanting to offend Jewish people in this discussion, and that there was an element of wanting to find remedy rather than add fuel to the fire. I also think it's quite apt to point out that while one can draw many comparisons with the Nazi's, the situation between Israel and Palestine is going to require it's own resolution due to the fact they are two completely separate set of events, and therefore I took blandy's point to be that it doesn't aid the Palestinians, or anyone, much if all we're doing is voicing comparisons from one regime to the next. I can appreciate that. Though I personally think it just gets shameful, and part of voicing such disdain and drawing comparisons helps portray the disappointment and hopefully elicit a change in perspective and therefore course of action. As it is the Israeli PM is facing little opposition from those with the power to aid Palestine.

[blandy]

13 hours ago, A'Villan said:

I think blandy offers a well reasoned approach to the discussion as well though. It may not have been blandy's intent or the reality, but I took the rationale to be a little more considered than purely not wanting to offend Jewish people in this discussion, and that there was an element of wanting to find remedy rather than add fuel to the fire. I also think it's quite apt to point out that while one can draw many comparisons with the Nazi's, the situation between Israel and Palestine is going to require it's own resolution due to the fact they are two completely separate set of events, and therefore I took blandy's point to be that it doesn't aid the Palestinians, or anyone, much if all we're doing is voicing comparisons from one regime to the next. I can appreciate that. Though I personally think it just gets shameful, and part of voicing such disdain and drawing comparisons helps portray the disappointment and hopefully elicit a change in perspective and therefore course of action. As it is the Israeli PM is facing little opposition from those with the power to aid Palestine.

Thanks. That's pretty close to where I'm at, too.

The IHRA definition + examples isn't perfect - no definition or examples ever will be, but for reasonable, balanced people, avoiding the definition and examples referenced when discussing or criticising Israel ought to be an absolute sinch. I mean how hard can it be just to not use the word "Nazi" or to avoid references to those responsible for the holocaust of 6 million + people 70+ years ago? etc. Not hard at all, unless you're an utter pillock is my guess. It just helps no one to go down that road. Well said.

[VILLAMARV]

Only no one reasonable wants to use any particular words. Just worried about laws that pre-empt any future actions by outlawing particular references.

If the cap fits and all that.

The point is constantly made that the inhumanity is the problem for most reasonable people in the outside world. Not the language or labels applied. It is astounding that this discussion is even allowed to go on while people are actually dying.

It is equally not that hard to avoid stigmatising entire races of people. The hypocracy is what fuels most of us to chip in I would wager.

[HanoiVillan]

On 01/09/2018 at 23:19, peterms said:

 

Oops, they did it again

 

[villakram]

More grass cutting underway. Shameful.

[sne]

So Israel sends an death squad (clad as civilians) into Palestinian territory (not the occupied one but the one they are yet to annex)  to murder a high ranking Hamas leader.

Things goes wrong and a soldier is killed so the call in airstrikes and 7 Palestinians are killed.

Hamas responds by launching something like 300 rockets towards Israeli's and more people are killed and injured.

Israel in turn as expected go full retard and attack 70 targets with helicopters and tanks (among other targets a TV station)  killing another 3.

The world is urging Israel to back down.

US are condemning Hamas...

Pray harder.

Edited November 13, 2018 by sne

[snowychap]

Lieberman has announced he is to resign as Defence Minister after the truce declared yesterday.

[Chindie]

Didn't kill enough Palestinians for his liking.

[peterms]

 

[chrisp65]

psycho nation of child murderers and land thieves

 

But I also admire their democracy and liberal western facing outlook and I abide by the Israeli imposed rules on crazy comparisons with other murderous racist regimes.