fruitvilla Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 24 minutes ago, villa4europe said: "Aston Villa need to release a statement on this telling me which side of the conflict I should be supporting" Aston Villa does not need to tell me there is no room for racism in the Premier League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 I do wonder what Hamas thought they would achieve in all of this, I understand some of the context and backstory, I know about the history of oppression and land seizures etc so I understand that ultimately this has been born out of frustration and anger but still, indiscriminately attacking civilians was never going to achieve anything of any military value and will not help garner support internationally. Would the general reaction have been different had they gone in and targeted military / government sites and people? I suspect not in terms of the Israeli response but perhaps in the wider international community. I don’t know where this goes from here but if Israel send in the troops they’re amassing on the borders it could turn extremely bloody, Mogadishu (US incursion, of Black Hawk Down fame) on steroids potentially with high casualties on both sides. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 Yup, they have **** themselves really. Their acts were so abhorrent that politicians see no reason to sit on the fence and we have Hamas denounced as evil while there are reports of Israeli bombs hitting schools and hospitals. Israel well be free to unleash whatever violence they deem appropriate while the international community supports their vengeance, and many more thousands of innocents will die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 Thought this was well written. Disagreed with the bit about Israel abiding by international law, but otherwise spoke a lot of sense 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wishywashy Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 48 minutes ago, Davkaus said: Israel well be free to unleash whatever violence they deem appropriate while the international community supports their vengeance, and many more thousands of innocents will die. Thousands may be putting it lightly, given the rhetoric of some Israeli officials. Absolutely horrifying. Constant reminder that the population of the Gaza Strip is 2 million, and around 40% of those are estimated to be 14 or younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 2 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said: I do wonder what Hamas thought they would achieve in all of this, I understand some of the context and backstory, I know about the history of oppression and land seizures etc so I understand that ultimately this has been born out of frustration and anger but still, indiscriminately attacking civilians was never going to achieve anything of any military value and will not help garner support internationally. Would the general reaction have been different had they gone in and targeted military / government sites and people? I suspect not in terms of the Israeli response but perhaps in the wider international community. I don’t know where this goes from here but if Israel send in the troops they’re amassing on the borders it could turn extremely bloody, Mogadishu (US incursion, of Black Hawk Down fame) on steroids potentially with high casualties on both sides. In isolation, it makes little sense as it almost certainly assures the destruction of Hamas in Gaza if not Gaza entirely. But, if viewed through the lens as being done in concert - dragging the IDF bulk force and reservationists into a bloody urban entanglement where the closest analogies are the Ukrainian war and US battles in Fallujah, it would leave Israel open to a Hezbollah attack to the north or a Russian-backed Syrian offensive in the Golen region. Would the “axis of resistance” be so bold? Risky, for certain. Could just as easily be that Hamas and the Palestinians are the wedge that the other nations use to cajole Israel into favorable deals. History is littered with other countries balking once the possibility of them being dragged into war is not so abstract. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 Who knows what is real anymore. Twitter is flooded with propaganda and disinformation and mainstream news isn't much better. It's painful watching these CNN anchors convey their commiserations to their interview subjects before a stylized backdrop and custom theme music. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 4 hours ago, villa4europe said: I don't even agree with that I'm not sure who is watching this unfold on the news and is sat thinking "ah man, I wonder what Harry Kane and Gareth Southgate make of all this" or "Aston Villa need to release a statement on this telling me which side of the conflict I should be supporting" I know what you mean, it's a form of vanity in a way to think that there NEEDS to be a public statement or acknowledgement from football clubs or federations of whatever the current fuss is about. But it seems that it's also a sort of tradition in English football to acknowledge, commemorate, honor etc., with a minute's silence, and I really like how it is so well-observed. But with an issue as fraught as this, I think they should just skip it entirely. By the time kick-off comes, people will probably just want to forget about the problems of the world for a few hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted October 11, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 11, 2023 4 hours ago, KentVillan said: Thought this was well written. Disagreed with the bit about Israel abiding by international law, but otherwise spoke a lot of sense Sadly I disagree. He frames himself as a liberal, calm etc. then, (as seems to be the norm in the West,) labels anyone trying to bring context as an anti-semite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, a-k said: So were Sweden's. Should Russia give back Karelia to Sweden? Just wow Any reason you used Sweden instead of Ukraine in your example? Edited October 11, 2023 by sne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 4 hours ago, wishywashy said: Thousands may be putting it lightly, given the rhetoric of some Israeli officials. Absolutely horrifying. Constant reminder that the population of the Gaza Strip is 2 million, and around 40% of those are estimated to be 14 or younger. My one hope is that whilst there will be a lot of (understandable) anger and rage followed by big statements about what they would like to do to Palestinian’s in revenge, there is still the issue of some 100+ hostages to think about That might give pause to an immediate gut reaction response? Maybe there will need to be some restraint to preserve the lives of the hostages and that could give some time to cool off and a more proportionate operation is planned? It’s only a faint hope mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 6 hours ago, avfc1982am said: Yeah she was 100% dead, even though Hamas are claiming shes in a hospital. Despicable the video is tbh, and then to chant God is great. Scumbags. I don't know what to believe on social media right now but a video of her alleged mother was doing the rounds saying she's alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 1 hour ago, TheAuthority said: Sadly I disagree. He frames himself as a liberal, calm etc. then, (as seems to be the norm in the West,) labels anyone trying to bring context as an anti-semite. Would you quote the bit you have a problem with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, Keyblade said: I don't know what to believe on social media right now but a video of her alleged mother was doing the rounds saying she's alive. Her mother has been told she’s alive but as far as I can gather has not been shown any actual evidence of that. I am guessing she is clinging on to that news in the face of all the video evidence otherwise. It obviously helps Hamas to make the claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 6 hours ago, fruitvilla said: Aston Villa does not need to tell me there is no room for racism in the Premier League. Unfortunately seeing as our fans are amongst the worst for online abuse they do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 13 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Unfortunately seeing as our fans are amongst the worst for online abuse they do Ahh I got it ... football fans are on the side of the angels when it comes to Judaism and Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyeddie Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 21 hours ago, Mic09 said: Tin foil hat on, it's almost unthinkable the best intelligence agency in the world didn't know about the attack. If I was a conspiracy theorist (and it's fun to do as a mental exercise) if some people within the Israel Zionist circles wanted to get rid of Palestinians once and for all, a retaliation is a way to do it without becoming a world pariah. Right away they compared the attacks to pearl harbour or 9/11. And both events ended in an bloodthirsty response. They probably knew and will use it as an excuse for their retaliation. I was once listening to a history buff, and he claimed that Churchill was aware of the imminent Pearl Harbor attack, but chose to say nothing because he knew that event would drag the US into the war (which did happen very soon afterwards) and change the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 1 hour ago, LondonLax said: Her mother has been told she’s alive but as far as I can gather has not been shown any actual evidence of that. I am guessing she is clinging on to that news in the face of all the video evidence otherwise. It obviously helps Hamas to make the claim. Yeah, she's dead. There's videos of her or someone similar being dragged behind cars too. She will be the image that German pro-Palestinians will be shown whenever they try to say anything about this. Hamas have shot themselves in the foot in pure blood lust, images from the Kibbutzes, babies or not, are absolutely in the ball park of ISIS and Al-Qaeda. Sadly for the inhabitants of Gaza the leaders of Hamas will be hiding in tunnels and in Lebanon while the population gets bombed indiscriminately for Hamas' actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, Panto_Villan said: Have they actually, though? A week ago the Palestinian cause was dead. Israel wasn’t even pretending to care about the peace process / Palestinian rights any more, and the other Arab states were essentially legitimising that state of affairs by recognising Israel. If nothing changed, in 10-20 years the Gaza Strip is still an open air prison and the West Bank has been fully settled by Israelis. You’re right that the optics of this massacre are absolutely terrible for the Palestinian cause, but their chance of a worthwhile peace deal was already zero. But now even if Israel reacts relatively proportionally the Arab rulers are going to find it a lot harder to conveniently forget about the Palestinians and establish friendly diplomatic ties with Israel, no matter how much they might want to. And in the medium term, Israel might reconsider constantly turning the screws on the Palestinians without also having a plausible path to peace on the table. Also, there’s a real risk here Israel goes way too hard into Gaza and intentionally or accidentally commits major atrocities of their own. The situation gets way more unpredictable if that happens. It might even end up boosting the Palestinian cause more than anything else in living memory. (Not sure how much consolation that’s going to be to the thousands of Palestinians who are going to die in Israeli retaliation over the next few weeks, though.) I'm not sure I agree. It's not Arab nations that will make Israel stop their occupation, it's the West. In the West almost everyone has seen what Hamas have done and been pushed far from what they stand for. Yes, it might hurt trade or a deal with SA for Israel, but it'll hurt almost every Westerner's perception of Palestine and Hamas as a result. If you ask the average voter in any democracy in Europe what they think about when you say Hamas, I'm sure you'll also see what most of the power players internationally feel. Edited October 11, 2023 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 1 hour ago, fruitvilla said: Ahh I got it ... football fans are on the side of the angels when it comes to Judaism and Islam. No, there's a direct link between football and racism There is no link between the Premier league and the gaza strip 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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