Israel, Palestine and Iran

[bannedfromHandV]

37 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Newsnight just rapidly shut some guy down that was suggesting turning off the water supply as a mass punishment of civilians was a war crime.

On the BBC news at 10, we were shown the funeral of a ‘lad’ who moved to Israel because he wanted to be a front line soldier. They didn’t appear to see any irony or any consequence of ones own actions in that. They just had it as a family tragedy story.

The leaders on both sides are equally murderous, but one side has far superior weaponry and networking skills.

The propaganda machine is in full effect, an Israeli representative earlier called this ‘Israel’s 9/11 and Pearl Harbour rolled into one’ - I’m not even sure where to start with that one but it’s clearly meant for the US public.

The BBC shut down a Palestinian representative earlier today because he wouldn’t categorically condemn the attacks on Israel, unfortunately the media will shape how most people see this situation unless people are invested in educating themselves.

[maqroll]

Netanyahu is finished. 

 

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, maqroll said:

Netanyahu is finished. 

 

I wonder if that is actually true? The source given there is a slight misspelling of the name of an Israeli newspaper and the only place I can find it reported is that same quote reposed around twitter.

Even if it’s disinformation, Netanyahu’s main reason for support has been that he provided security, and now he can’t even fall back on that. 

 

[sne]

6 hours ago, ender4 said:

I read somewhere that Gaza has 2 million people in that small area.  Has it always had so many people? Or are more people moving into Gaza from somewhere?

Palestine used to be a fair bit bigger

Edited October 10, 2023 by sne

[LondonLax]

6 hours ago, ender4 said:

I read somewhere that Gaza has 2 million people in that small area.  Has it always had so many people? Or are more people moving into Gaza from somewhere?

The Gaza strip has one of the fastest growing populations in the world, with over 5000 children born there each month. 

[maqroll]

30 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I wonder if that is actually true? The source given there is a slight misspelling of the name of an Israeli newspaper and the only place I can find it reported is that same quote reposed around twitter.

Even if it’s disinformation, Netanyahu’s main reason for support has been that he provided security, and now he can’t even fall back on that. 

 

Yes, I should've have come back and put that caveat in there, because I also ultimately found it unsubstantiated the more I read. But the point stands- Netanyahu was above all, supposed to keep Israel secure. And he was warned that increasing aggression against Palestinians was going to backfire, and it has, spectacularly. He's already hated by half the country, and this security disaster should seal his fate politically. Rumors, true or false, or half-true, about being him tipped off by Egypt 10 days ago, make things even more uncomfortable for him. 

The quote from him that I posted earlier sounds really bad and lends credence to the idea that he very well might have known ahead of time or that he even made strategic decisions to accommodate an assault that he might have thought wasn't going to be as devastating.

[maqroll]

39 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

The Gaza strip has one of the fastest growing populations in the world, with over 5000 children born there each month. 

Post-WW2 Jewish immigration to Palestine, and the subsequent fighting and partitioning displaced a few hundred thousand Palestinians from their homes all across the country and they mostly fled to Lebanon, Jordan or Gaza.

[LondonLax]

7 minutes ago, maqroll said:

Yes, I should've have come back and put that caveat in there, because I also ultimately found it unsubstantiated the more I read. But the point stands- Netanyahu was above all, supposed to keep Israel secure. And he was warned that increasing aggression against Palestinians was going to backfire, and it has, spectacularly. He's already hated by half the country, and this security disaster should seal his fate politically. Rumors, true or false, or half-true, about being him tipped off by Egypt 10 days ago, make things even more uncomfortable for him. 

The quote from him that I posted earlier sounds really bad and lends credence to the idea that he very well might have known ahead of time or that he even made strategic decisions to accommodate an assault that he might have thought wasn't going to be as devastating.

It should but the guy is like Trump. There have been plenty of things that should have ended his time in office but he’s still around. 

[maqroll]

3 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

It should but the guy is like Trump. There have been plenty of things that should have ended his time in office but he’s still around. 

The entire premise of Israel is based on a guarantee of security, it is what undergirds the whole thing. Security from Nazis, from pogroms, from Jihadists. Mossad and Netanyahu have failed to provide the protection they promised, so trust in his leadership might not be salvageable. I could see him move to shift blame in an attempt to save himself. But he's not going anywhere just yet. He's about to do something he's only dreamed about.

[VILLAMARV]

9 hours ago, LondonLax said:

I take it you haven’t seen the celebrations and fireworks being let off on Saturday from people supporting the cause as a justified retaliation against oppression?

This is from an Iran state newspaper yesterday. The translation says

 

 

 

Take whatever you like, but I'm really struggling to follow. How is this in any way, a response to what I posted about?

Are you suggesting this is a wonderful display of empathy, remorse and stellar social behaviour?

Of course I haven't watched a load of terrorist sympathisers celebrating terrorism, same as I haven't watched the terrorism videos. Why would I want to? (that last one is rhetorical)

But you're telling me the Iranian State doesn't much care for Isreal and has a lot of time for Hamas? (gasp) colour me shocked

Justified is an interesting qualifier though. Whatever happens is a reaction to oppression, that much is made clear by the decades of oppression, including towards the ones not letting off fireworks. Interesting to me it's often used to qualify Isreal's oppression, not so much to attempt to understand the anger of the oppressed.

 

[maqroll]

CNN interviews reverting to form after that aberration on Zakaria's program. Absolutely no room for nuance, historical context or any discussion of why Palestinians might feel aggrieved.

[magnkarl]

I wonder how this will play out for Ukraine. Zelensky's speech said what everyone is thinking about Iran and Russia, and at this rate Lavrov has likely caused Israel to fall squarely into Ukraine's camp once (which I think is likely) Netanyahu will have to leave office for his idiotic tension-building exercise with Palestine and his complete lack of coherency in the security sphere. The republican parties in Israel is essentially what is holding Israeli aid to Ukraine back, but these won't hold back once everyone actually opens their eyes and sees what's going on with Russia\Iran and supporting terror around the world on an industrial scale.

[LondonLax]

8 minutes ago, maqroll said:

CNN interviews reverting to form after that aberration on Zakaria's program. Absolutely no room for nuance, historical context or any discussion of why Palestinians might feel aggrieved.

They might be concerned it could be interpreted as justification for the weekend’s events? 

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, maqroll said:

The entire premise of Israel is based on a guarantee of security, it is what undergirds the whole thing. Security from Nazis, from pogroms, from Jihadists. Mossad and Netanyahu have failed to provide the protection they promised, so trust in his leadership might not be salvageable. I could see him move to shift blame in an attempt to save himself. But he's not going anywhere just yet. He's about to do something he's only dreamed about.

Agreed. The few people I know that live in Israel have this view exactly. Netanyahu's been too busy acting like a right-wing aggravator to take the actual security of the country seriously. Instead of going to a mosque in Jerusalem to stoke reactions he should have actually got the young generation which the security services are so dependent on on board. The young generation vote widely for the left or centre parties who are mostly for the two state solution and really can't stomach the right wing idiocy that Benny's second and third generation of the original settlers have gone with. Israel has the same issues that America has that the middle aged population is essentially full of conspiracy loving war mongers who all love Benny and his populist right wing loonies.

[OutByEaster?]

20 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I wonder how this will play out for Ukraine. Zelensky's speech said what everyone is thinking about Iran and Russia, and at this rate Lavrov has likely caused Israel to fall squarely into Ukraine's camp once (which I think is likely) Netanyahu will have to leave office for his idiotic tension-building exercise with Palestine and his complete lack of coherency in the security sphere. The republican parties in Israel is essentially what is holding Israeli aid to Ukraine back, but these won't hold back once everyone actually opens their eyes and sees what's going on with Russia\Iran and supporting terror around the world on an industrial scale.

it's complicated I think for Russia - Russia and Israel have a very close relationship with the number of Jewish people that have emigrated to Israel from Russia over the years (apparently 1 in 6 Israeli's speak Russian, Putin claims it's half) and they have really strong links in terms of culture and population - but those relations have been strained by the war in Ukraine. I think Netanyahu will use the punishment of Gaza to cement his position in power as 'the great avenger' I can't see him going anywhere soon and if he does, I suspect he's more likely to be replaced by an even more right wing candidate. Putin remains in an odd balance between Iran and Israel - he needs Iran because of the sanctions on Russia but he risks breaking the close bond between Israel and Russia if he doesn't condemn them.

 

[LondonLax]

19 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Agreed. The few people I know that live in Israel have this view exactly. Netanyahu's been too busy acting like a right-wing aggravator to take the actual security of the country seriously. Instead of going to a mosque in Jerusalem to stoke reactions he should have actually got the young generation which the security services are so dependent on on board. The young generation vote widely for the left or centre parties who are mostly for the two state solution and really can't stomach the right wing idiocy that Benny's second and third generation of the original settlers have gone with. Israel has the same issues that America has that the middle aged population is essentially full of conspiracy loving war mongers who all love Benny and his populist right wing loonies.

Many of those left thinking youth will have been the demographic at the music festival as well. 

[ender4]

Random question - That German woman who was at the festival and was murdered and paraded naked by Hamas - she was Israeli German.  
 

Which got me thinking, are there a lot of Jews in Germany? I had just assumed that most would have left at some point after WW2?

[magnkarl]

5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

it's complicated I think for Russia - Russia and Israel have a very close relationship with the number of Jewish people that have emigrated to Israel from Russia over the years (apparently 1 in 6 Israeli's speak Russian, Putin claims it's half) and they have really strong links in terms of culture and population - but those relations have been strained by the war in Ukraine. I think Netanyahu will use the punishment of Gaza to cement his position in power as 'the great avenger' I can't see him going anywhere soon and if he does, I suspect he's more likely to be replaced by an even more right wing candidate. Putin remains in an odd balance between Iran and Israel - he needs Iran because of the sanctions on Russia but he risks breaking the close bond between Israel and Russia if he doesn't condemn them.

 

As far as I gather a lot of the Jews that Putin considers Russian are actually Ukrainian. And a lot of them are in Israel because of pogroms performed by Putin's heroes. Russia also famously delivered weapons to pretty much all of Israel's enemies during the early wars after WW2.

Frankly I don't see how Russia can keep up the balancing act. Iran has it in its constitution to kill Jews, and Russia bombs Ukraine's synagogues, cities and population with no regard for anything. Universities and education is put as high as the army in Israel, and in university young people are actually taught the truth (to Benny's dismay).

Demography isn't on Putin, Trump or Benny's side. Their supporters and views are dying out across the globe.

[magnkarl]

9 minutes ago, ender4 said:

Random question - That German woman who was at the festival and was murdered and paraded naked by Hamas - she was Israeli German.  
 

Which got me thinking, are there a lot of Jews in Germany? I had just assumed that most would have left at some point after WW2?

I think there's around 200.000 Jews in Germany, with around 300.000 who are covered by Israel's 'law of return'. (descendants of Jewish grandparents).

[desensitized43]

Everytime something in Israel kicks off it reminds me of my uni days. One of the guys in my classes who I was good mates with (muslim guy, but not Palestinian, if that matters) was very animated on the subject. I remember having a lot of conversations with him about the history of it and where he thought it should go next and a lot of what was said still shocks me. He liked to say that it was all Palestine and that Israel wasn't even a country and that the Palestinians and the rest of the Muslim world needed to "kick them out". I would challenge and ask specifically where they were supposed to go? (to a white country, he would say) what that would mean if the Jews wouldn't leave voluntarily? which was where things got very dark that they should basically force them out or he would allude to just wiping out the ones who wouldn't go.

Needless to say what I heard during those days gave me the instinct that we needed to support the Israeli's because they were basically sandwiched between a bunch of people/nations that would annihilate them given the chance. I'm no expert on the subject though.

I'm not sure how common that belief is from Muslims living in the UK or abroad and certainly the way they treat the Palestinians is pretty disgraceful and something akin to apartheid.