Israel, Palestine and Iran

[magnkarl]

5 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

Until that enemy is dead.

For Iran it's win-win. Keep the area unstable, keep Israel from forming relations with other Arab nations, keep the US busy elsewhere, and have Sunnis dead in battle all at once. Lovely bunch of chaps.

[desensitized43]

19 minutes ago, Jareth said:

I keep typing Hummus before correcting

You just reminded me of that scene in Bruno where he tries to solve "the middle earth crisis" and suggested that "Pitta Bread" was the real enemy

[El Segundo]

5 hours ago, Mic09 said:

Tin foil hat on, it's almost unthinkable the best intelligence agency in the world didn't know about the attack.

If I was a conspiracy theorist (and it's fun to do as a mental exercise) if some people within the Israel Zionist circles wanted to get rid of Palestinians once and for all, a retaliation is a way to do it without becoming a world pariah. 

Right away they compared the attacks to pearl harbour or 9/11. And both events ended in an bloodthirsty response. 

In John Le Carre's "The Tailor of Panama" there is a scenario wherein a situation is deliberately tolerated, escalated and provoked so that the US has an excuse to go in and bomb the bejaysus out of the "bad guys" along with plenty of "collateral damage".  If I recall it correctly it was described as them needing a "hook" to hang the attack on. 

Ok it's fiction and maybe not that relevant - but Le Carrre was a former diplomat (and spy) and who knows how much of that may have been him writing from experience.  

Some might say the that the West going into Iraq in 2003 supposedly on the basis of them producing WMDs, which, as far I know were never found, was just such a "hook".  Or just such a conspiracy theory.  

[maqroll]

If Hezbollah fully committed to an assault from the north forming a pincer attack with Hamas in Gaza, this could get interesting, but it sounds like they are essentially firing their rifles into the sky in solidarity.

[KentVillan]

2 hours ago, El Segundo said:

In John Le Carre's "The Tailor of Panama" there is a scenario wherein a situation is deliberately tolerated, escalated and provoked so that the US has an excuse to go in and bomb the bejaysus out of the "bad guys" along with plenty of "collateral damage".  If I recall it correctly it was described as them needing a "hook" to hang the attack on. 

Ok it's fiction and maybe not that relevant - but Le Carrre was a former diplomat (and spy) and who knows how much of that may have been him writing from experience.  

Some might say the that the West going into Iraq in 2003 supposedly on the basis of them producing WMDs, which, as far I know were never found, was just such a "hook".  Or just such a conspiracy theory.  

No doubt at all that these things have happened in the past and could happen again.

BUT in this case it’s hard to imagine how the Israelis could pull it off without someone on the inside whistleblowing that they’ve deliberately allowed babies to be beheaded, young women raped, etc. I just don’t see how the conspiracy holds together.

Makes much more sense that the whole regime has become distracted and weakened by scandals and division, leading to a major security lapse.

One theory is that they became too dependent on hacking and tapping phones, and took their eye off old fashioned human intelligence, and Hamas successfully coordinated this without using electronic comms.

[OutByEaster?]

Where are we on the curve now then?

We start with the "evil Hamas send terrorist rockets thing" (the actual start isn't important, this is where the media curve aways starts) then through masses of "Israel has a right to defend itself" and "We need to support our partners" and then onto, the "that might be a bit much" stage, followed by the "working with Israel to bring peace" stage and then finally onto the "promise aid and help" stage before not providing aid and help and waiting for the next time.

I think we've got a bit to go before the "that might be a bit much" stage - Mr Netanyahu will be making hay.

 

[Chindie]

We're at the stage whereby showing solidarity with Palestinians might be a crime, according to the ghoul currently holding one of the great seats of governance in this country.

Which opens up some interesting thoughts when you consider it's anti-Semetic to equate Israel and all Jews, but apparently drawing a line between Hamas and Palestinians may be criminal.

[magnkarl]

The pictures coming out of the kibbutzes where Hamas have been are awful. 40 dead children, many dismembered have apparently been found in one.

Hamas have inflicted a wound to the Palestinian cause that Israel could only dream of inflicting.

[maqroll]

8 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

I've never quite understood the relationship between Hamas and Iran, especially with Hamas being a Sunni organisation. 

Most Palestinians are Sunni.

[ender4]

39 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

The pictures coming out of the kibbutzes where Hamas have been are awful. 40 dead children, many dismembered have apparently been found in one.

Are those from Israel bombing the buildings?

Was it a school or something like that to have so many dead children all in one place?

Edited October 10, 2023 by ender4

[TheAuthority]

Don't try and add nuance to the debate, you'll lose your scholarship.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67067565

Quote

A letter from Harvard University student groups blaming Israel for violence in the region has drawn a backlash from prominent alumni and US lawmakers.

The letter, authored by the Harvard Undergraduate Palestine Solidarity Committee, stated that students "hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence".
 

It was co-signed by 33 student groups.
 

"Today's events did not occur in a vacuum," the statement said.
 

"The apartheid regime is the only one to blame. Israeli violence has structured every aspect of Palestinian existence for 75 years," the letter added.

 

[maqroll]

As I suspected

 

[Chindie]

Various US states have laws that dictate that you cannot 'not'.be pro-Israel and still receive funding.

The US relationship with Israel is warped. Sadly we're going down the same path.

[KentVillan]

43 minutes ago, maqroll said:

Most Palestinians are Sunni.

I think his point is that Iran is Shi'ite

[El Segundo]

3 hours ago, KentVillan said:

No doubt at all that these things have happened in the past and could happen again.

BUT in this case it’s hard to imagine how the Israelis could pull it off without someone on the inside whistleblowing that they’ve deliberately allowed babies to be beheaded, young women raped, etc. I just don’t see how the conspiracy holds together.

Makes much more sense that the whole regime has become distracted and weakened by scandals and division, leading to a major security lapse.

One theory is that they became too dependent on hacking and tapping phones, and took their eye off old fashioned human intelligence, and Hamas successfully coordinated this without using electronic comms.

Agree, in this case it seems very unlikely, unless they're incredibly callous about the risk to their own , or had badly underestimated how vicious and merciless things would get.    

[DJBOB]

Isn't it odd - the set of circumstances that have to align in order for October 7 to happen? And I don't mean that in a conspiracy sort of way, but in the Princip just happened to be sitting at the cafe where Franz Ferdinand's car had to turn around sort of way.

Israel is in the hands of a corrupt PM, desperately hanging on to power and making deals left and right to do so - weakening the IDF command and readiness along the way. Following months of settler violence on the West Bank - provoked by Israel, the IDF redeployed forces away from Gaza to the West Bank, further weakening their protection. Then - having practiced the incursion in plain sight in Gaza, Hamas launched the attacking using bulldozers, motorcycles, and hang gliders...killing, kidnapping, and raping their way to a pyric victory.

A story in history as old as time. The unfocused superior power undone by guerilla tactics.

And now - the ugly Israeli retaliation - probably no less than the eradication of Gaza.

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, ender4 said:

Are those from Israel bombing the buildings?

Was it a school or something like that to have so many dead children all in one place?

No, it’s the collective farms inside Israel that Hamas attacked. In one they’ve found 120 executed people, including people from different countries around Europe.

[a-k]

16 hours ago, sne said:

Palestine used to be a fair bit bigger

So were Sweden's. Should Russia give back Karelia to Sweden? 

[avfc1982am]

TBH what they've done to this poor German girl is f****** disgusting. You lose all moral position when you start murdering the innocent and do things this young girl was subjected too. 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by avfc1982am

[Panto_Villan]

59 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

Don't try and add nuance to the debate, you'll lose your scholarship.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67067565

 

I’m not sure blaming the events entirely on Israel is adding more nuance than blaming them purely on the Palestinians, tbh.

There’s putting things in context, and there’s whitewashing atrocities. Doing the latter (in defence of a designated terrorrist group, no less) is a pretty bold move for someone who wants to keep their scholarship.